To push or not to push (2 hands) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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suited_ace

04-06-2005, 11:58 PM

I'm sorry for all the "should I push" posts, but this is the most significant effect of the small starting stacks at Party, and I just started playing there, so I'm trying to get better at it as fast as possible.

These two hands are from the same STT.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1185)
UTG (t1075)
MP1 (t930)
Hero (t1520)
CO (t1670)
Button (t1075)
SB (t545)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, SB raises to t250, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1520 (All-In), SB calls t295 (All-In).

I'm pretty unhappy with this hand because I didn't think before pushing. I just went "I have AK, it's a push", never stopping to consider stack sizes, range of hands, nothing. I think the push was alright, though. The only thing I'm in doubt about is if a stop n' go can be a good idea in this spot, or even if folding was an option. What do you think?

I lost this hand to SB's JJ and went totally card dead.

The next hand is the last hand in the 50/100 level, and the Button had been raising a lot pre-flop. UTG was a very weak player, and his limp didn't worry me that much.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2850)
SB (t665)
Hero (t625)
UTG (t655)
MP (t3205)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t100, 1 fold, Button raises to t200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t625 (All-In)...

Would you have pushed in this spot as well? Why?

Pepsquad

04-07-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry for all the "should I push" posts, but this is the most significant effect of the small starting stacks at Party, and I just started playing there, so I'm trying to get better at it as fast as possible.

These two hands are from the same STT.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1185)
UTG (t1075)
MP1 (t930)
Hero (t1520)
CO (t1670)
Button (t1075)
SB (t545)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, SB raises to t250, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1520 (All-In), SB calls t295 (All-In).

I'm pretty unhappy with this hand because I didn't think before pushing. I just went "I have AK, it's a push", never stopping to consider stack sizes, range of hands, nothing. I think the push was alright, though. The only thing I'm in doubt about is if a stop n' go can be a good idea in this spot, or even if folding was an option. What do you think?

I lost this hand to SB's JJ and went totally card dead.

The next hand is the last hand in the 50/100 level, and the Button had been raising a lot pre-flop. UTG was a very weak player, and his limp didn't worry me that much.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2850)
SB (t665)
Hero (t625)
UTG (t655)
MP (t3205)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t100, 1 fold, Button raises to t200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t625 (All-In)...

Would you have pushed in this spot as well? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good hands for for analysis.

Regarding #1, I really can't fault you for the push but I wouldn't. If SB is an aware opponent, you have ZERO fold equity in this situation. There's no harm in just calling and taking a flop.

Regarding #2, this was just misplaced desperation. Yes, you are short-stacked, but you are actually in 3rd place (becasue the BB will hit CO and SB before it hits you again), you still have time. FWIW, I don't think the push was all that bad because 1/2 the time button was just on an outright steal. I'd say it was a great push if CO and SB both had stacks of over 1,000 but they are just as desperate as you right now. This is one of the few situations where I'm really in no hurry, even at only 6BB.

Pep.

microbet

04-07-2005, 12:09 AM

The first one I just call, but the push isn't terrible.

The second one is ... well ... IMHO ... not good. Button is a big stack and you are a small stack. Plus, you are basically tied for 3rd place. I wouldn't reraise someone who could so easily call you without a good hand. I'm thinking AQ, 99+ or maybe AJ, 88+.

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 12:16 AM

That first hand is tricky and why I don't necessarily raise to 150 pre-flop on level 3 there. Such a raise by a shorty generally means he has something pretty good. Then again, you have an A and a K so he probably doesn't have AA or KK. Plus, depending on your buyin, I've seen tons of high Aces played that way for whatever stupid reason.....hell, my friggin' friend who kills the 10/20 was playing his AQ similarly to that....ugh.

So anyway, you can't really stop n go on the first hand so I guess a push is fine. I don't like folding with all those chips in there (and ur at worst the wrong side of a coinflip) and calling planning to fold if an A or K doesn't come and SB pushes doesn't seem great either....I feel pushing is most profitable once you get reraised (if he had a bigger stack you could call and fold to an allin when an A or K doesn't show up instead).

In the second hand I like folding. You're gonna get called here b/c ur stack doesn't carry any FE to a min-raise. Racing with K7 isn't horrible but you ought to be able to attack either the SB or UTG at some point here (very likely on the next hand to a completion or if it's folded to you)...when are the blinds going up and who will they hit first?

Yugoslav

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The first one I just call, but the push isn't terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you fold for the extra 295 chips (with 575 in the pot) when an A or K doesn't hit?

If the SB stack is bigger I agree with calling...

Yugoslav

beeyjay

04-07-2005, 12:20 AM

I agree with the other 2 for the most part.

1. I think all the chips are getting to the middle here. A stop and go isn't going to get him to go anywhere I don't think. By raising half his stack hes putting himself all in I feel and I don't see how you could fold this with the stack sizes and obviously the fact u could very well have him beaten.

2. The only way I like this is if the raiser has been raising every hand previous to this one. I say this for the fact that if not theres a better chance that youre beaten but also there is a better chance of having an unraised pot to push into later.

willie

04-07-2005, 12:21 AM

first one is fine. you'r elikely in bad shape though, not much you can do with that much in the pot already

- you also can't do a stop and go since the sb has position and will most likely be pushing his jacks on the flop anyway

second hand- over desperate. fold and push any 2 from the sb if it's folded to you i think. you're short but there is an art to massaging a shortstack. make each push count and do them at optimum times.

suited_ace

04-07-2005, 12:28 AM

Nice! Got some great answers here... Thanks guys. First of all, I forgot to tell that this is a $10+1.

Secondly, I didn't consider who the blinds were going to hit first at all in hand 2. Stupid, but the lesson is learned.

Yugoslav, what would be your play with AK instead of raising 150? Why?

microbet

04-07-2005, 12:48 AM

Good point. After calling it is very unlikely either of you should ever fold. He won't fold preflop. Why not give him the opportunity to make a mistake folding postflop?

Pepsquad

04-07-2005, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good point. After calling it is very unlikely either of you should ever fold. He won't fold preflop. Why not give him the opportunity to make a mistake folding postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely! Even if the flop comes Q high, waiting to push the flop gives villain one more decision
(i.e.. - opportunity to make the wrong decision).

Pep.

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nice! Got some great answers here... Thanks guys. First of all, I forgot to tell that this is a $10+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's cool...doesn't make a *huge* difference I guess whether it's an 11 or 22 but....I like to pretend it affects my opinion a whole bunch, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[ QUOTE ]

Secondly, I didn't consider who the blinds were going to hit first at all in hand 2. Stupid, but the lesson is learned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this happens to us all but you *have* to really make sure you know the blind configuration....it's the heart and soul of any STT position. It's like pawn structure in chess (to me at least, curtains will probably disagree vehemently) - everything plays off of it (one's plans, specific tactics, general strategy).

[ QUOTE ]

Yugoslav, what would be your play with AK instead of raising 150? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the table. If it's quite passive/weak I don't mind limping or min-raising in order to play it in a smallish pot I can get away from. Frankly though, it's most likely unfair and incorrect for me to harp on a raise to 150 here. I just don't like getting a big pot that is too tricky to play correctly vs. monkeys post-flop (like I even play post-flop well to begin with, sheesh). The blinds aren't too significant here, but wedding yourself to a fat, juicy pot can be risky depending on the table...

Of course, Scuba might raise any two to 150 here from MP....apparently everyone folds at his tables on level 3, /images/graemlins/grin.gif, so what do I know!.

Yugoslav
Who is a bit confused why he's trying so hard to analyze *your* hand.....;).

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 12:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good point. After calling it is very unlikely either of you should ever fold. He won't fold preflop. Why not give him the opportunity to make a mistake folding postflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

B/c he has position on you for this hand (yes, SB has the positional advantage here!).

I think it's asking a bit much for a check/fold from such a short stack who just raised half of his chips in pre-flop...

Yugoslav

jacksrule

04-07-2005, 01:00 AM

in regard to situation #1 I must say(as my name also implies) that jacks rule! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif that aside, you probably already know that you are a 3:1 dog to hit a pair on the flop, which gives you the option of a race against a pocket pair. Obviously everybody will have their opinion, but it's ultimately up to how willing you are to gamble when you can walk away from the hand(not likely) but still have a good chip position.
As far as situation #2 I would only play it that way if I was ready to pack it up for the day. You basically are relying on your overcard(which is probably dominated) and you have no straight or flush possibility to increase your chances of sucking out on two most likely better hands. Hope this helps /images/graemlins/grin.gif

suited_ace

04-07-2005, 01:02 AM

That was my point for the stop n' go, even with the SB short stacked. I would have 1270 in front of me after calling his re-raise. I give him the option of making a mistake post-flop, and with 295 left and being first to act, there's a good chance he'll push the flop even if a K or an A hit. What do you think of this line?

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 01:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would only play it that way if I was ready to pack it up for the day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I hope that's just a figure of speech and not your plan halfway through a set that's not goin' well, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

*Never* 'pack it in' unless it's like House of Pain style and you're all 'pack it up pack it in' and referring to your chips when you have AA vs. suckas...

Yugoslav

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That was my point for the push n' go

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is this??!

[ QUOTE ]

even with the SB short stacked. I would have 1270 in front of me after calling his re-raise. I give him the option of making a mistake post-flop, and with 295 left and being first to act, there's a good chance he'll push the flop even if a K or an A hit. What do you think of this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...that's just the problem...he's pushing any flop. You're just giving yourself a chance to fold the flop...which I hate.

Yugoslav

suited_ace

04-07-2005, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yugoslav
Who is a bit confused why he's trying so hard to analyze *your* hand.....;).

[/ QUOTE ]

Instant Karma, man...

jacksrule

04-07-2005, 01:10 AM

Yeah, I hope that's just a figure of speech and not your plan halfway through a set that's not goin' well, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Most definitely /images/graemlins/cool.gif...I have proved to myself time and again that "a chip and a chair" is absolutely true. I have been down to less than a small blind in a tournament, tripled up on pocket kings going in blind /images/graemlins/laugh.gif and then beating out the remaining thirty players! We must remain strong and bring our best weapons to the battle when we bring it!!! Right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

suited_ace

04-07-2005, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was my point for the push n' go

[/ QUOTE ]
What the hell is this??!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! I edited my post, thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
Umm...that's just the problem...he's pushing any flop. You're just giving yourself a chance to fold the flop...which I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Good point.

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was my point for the push n' go

[/ QUOTE ]
What the hell is this??!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! I edited my post, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's just it though...you CANNOT DO A STOP N GO HERE! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You can do a stop n hope he checks n then go....but that is something entirely different and with villian having so few chips behind I don't think he's capable of allowing that - his chip stack makes him play correctly here...pushing any flop, which exploits your pre-flop call...now you're faced with an awkward decision when there is no A or K.

Yugoslav

suited_ace

04-07-2005, 01:29 AM

Yeah, I got it after your last post.

microbet

04-07-2005, 02:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Umm...that's just the problem...he's pushing any flop. You're just giving yourself a chance to fold the flop...which I hate.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't fold. I don't think it would make a huge difference here either way, but I would be more worried about him getting off the hook with some of his chips when the A or K hits. If the only mistake you think you can make is to fold after the flop, just put your hand over your heart and swear you won't fold after the flop.

The Yugoslavian

04-07-2005, 02:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm...that's just the problem...he's pushing any flop. You're just giving yourself a chance to fold the flop...which I hate.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Then don't fold. I don't think it would make a huge difference here either way, but I would be more worried about him getting off the hook with some of his chips when the A or K hits. If the only mistake you think you can make is to fold after the flop, just put your hand over your heart and swear you won't fold after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I know. I've done this on occasion but I hate it. I rather push pre-flop and capture the 1% of the time he folds...rather than the 1% of the time I somehow chicken out on the flop and fold.

But yes, calling and calling does the same thing really.

Yugoslav