Concept 17: An Advanced Play

[Andy B]

OK, here goes. The stud/8 section in SS2 is good. If it's the only thing you ever read on the subject, you should be able to beat most stud/8 games. It's arguably the strongest section in the book. The above-referenced section describes a play which I have occasionally considered but never tried, to the best of my recollection. Here's the basic idea: you start with (2/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif or some such and gleefully cap it on third street. Naturally, you catch the <font color="red">T/images/graemlins/heart.gif</font> on fourth street. Mr. Brunson the Younger has you raise fourth street to stave off a cap. You basically have to call anyway, and by raising you may be able to slow down one of your opponents. I do think that there is the very occasional spot where this would be a useful play, and Mr. Brunson does say that it's rare that you should ever use it. I think that the typical reader won't be able to bring himself to use it anyway, but I think that those who do are likely to misapply it. I also think that his example hand is flawed.

In example one, the hands are as follows:

You: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="red">T/images/graemlins/heart.gif</font>
Player 1: xx xx 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="red">4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif</font>
Player 2: xx xx <font color="red">K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif</font>

It was capped on third street. Mr. Brunson has you raise when player 2 bets, so that when player 1 three-bets, player 2 will only call, fearing that you have a strong high hand. I don't think that raising is going to slow anyone down in this particular instance. If KJ has only one pair, he's probably not going to cap this round anyway. He has to be worried about the 74 himself. I don't think most cap or will call a cap with a garden-variety three-card Seven. KJ has to be worried that 74 has pocket Aces or rolled-up Sevens. 7654 is also a strong possibilty, and if that's what he has, the Kings are no longer a money favorite even if they have straight possibilty like (KQ)KJ. If KJ is rolled, it's going to get jammed whatever you do.

74 might not jam anyway. He could be paired, or he could stink.

Now maybe the folks playing $200/400 in Vegas are more aggressive than the folks who play $30/60 in Minnesota. I don't think that a guy with one pair is going to jam with a guy who looks like he has a strong two-way draw.

On a more subtle note, I think that the risk-to-reward ratio is magnified in most games, because most games have a four-bet cap. I play in games with a five-bet cap. That's the norm in Vegas, and that's the game Mr. Brunson is writing about. I think all games on-line and on the coasts have a four-bet cap, though. If you're putting in three bets to try to save two, that's a lot more beneficial than putting in three bets trying to save only one.

[bugstud]

I think you need the 4's and aces live to make it more believable

[TheShootah]

I was almost positive that this was what you were gonna talk about. I agree with your assessment now that I have read it. At first I saw this play as brilliant, but I don't think in any game that I would play in this play would fly.

[B Mando]

[ QUOTE ]
On a more subtle note, I think that the risk-to-reward ratio is magnified in most games, because most games have a four-bet cap. I play in games with a five-bet cap. That's the norm in Vegas, and that's the game Mr. Brunson is writing about. I think all games on-line and on the coasts have a four-bet cap, though. If you're putting in three bets to try to save two, that's a lot more beneficial than putting in three bets trying to save only one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo!

[SuitedBaby]

Interesting analysis. I think in the games Brunson is talking about the KJ will almost always jam with just one pair if you call and the 74 raises. Also the 74 will definitely raise if you call no matter what he has. I don't think monsters under the bed (rolled hands, perfect 4th street low catches, or even pocket aces) are a significant consideration in this type of game on 4th street in this situation where everyone is jockeying for control on the cheap street. The capping on 3rd street doesn't necessarily indicate big hands.

That is not to say I would make the play (or have the buy-in) but you do have like the deception even when it doesn't work. I think your point about 5 bet games is well taken and I do think the big games have a aggressive style all their own.

[Drunk Bob]

I play LL online and can only recall 1 time it was capped on 3rd. I guess Doyle Jr.plays in some aggressive games! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif