Three card straight

[greenage]

7 Card Stud High-Low ($1/$2), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.50 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls

Do I really want to call here? Four low cards are out, including a four that I could use for the straight draw and a nine as well.

4th Street - (3.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks

5th Street - (1.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls

6th Street - (4.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks

Do you think I should bet here with a pair, and an open-ended straight/low draw. Seat 5 is the only possible low draw.

River - (4.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif xx___checks___calls
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets

Total pot: (6.65 BB)

What do you’ all think about the pot size info?

Any comments appreciated.

[Andy B]

Pot size info is good.

Third street is a call. 876 is a pretty good starting hand, and it's cheap.

Obviously, you check fourth street, and you can't call a bet.

Fifth street is a little more nebulous. You're open-ended now, but three of your straight outs are gone. You also probably don't have the best four-card low (84T and 2JA are yet to act behind you; as it turns out, they didn't call, but you couldn't know that when you made your decision). I probably call, but you can't take a lot of heat with this hand, especially in this small of a pot.

Unless my opponents are super-loose, I try to buy that pot on sixth. Your board is a bit scary, and they aren't showing much. Hey, with what is likely the only low draw, the straight draw, and a pair, you probably have a value bet there. Seat 5 could theoretically have a low draw, but that would mean that he bet on fifth street with AKQr showing and two babies in the hole, so any low you make should be the nuts.

Your trips are definitely worth a value bet on the river. Nice hand.

[SuitedBaby]

You may or may not want to call here but did you consider a raise/complete? 876 no-suitedness is a borderline hand but one that actually plays reasonable well short-handed or heads-up. Other than the 8h your pairing cards are live here and often the bigger little card pairs matter greatly plus you have your back-up rough low and weak straight draws. I know that this thread is concentrating on the straight draw but that is quite a longshot especially considering the dead cards. Pure straight draws would like company and to draw cheaply but this is stud 8. This hand ranks 314/1755 in EV 7-way against random hands with everyone going to the river. Roughly an 82%tile hand. That is according to work I believe by Andrew Prock. Sims such as this are obviously of marginal value since they include no playing considerations.

Now about a raise. First of all I don't think you loose much by folding or calling here. However I think raising in a situation such as this can improve on that 82%tile projection. Probably even more so if you had the 8 in the door. If you raise it is possible that you might steal though unlikely. What is more likely is that it will be 3-way or heads-up and you will gain much needed information about other low draws and the ace. I would put the Ace on marginal values probably including a brick since they didn't raise. The 9 and 8 likely will fold and the other two hands are random hands with a door 4 and a 2. The beauty of raising is that it adds so much deception to your hand. You will have more playing options on 4th no matter what you catch. Overall I would guess that raising has the best EV though it does allow variance to rear its ugly head, :-).

BTW, love the converter.

[greenage]

In “the book” Ray Zee does say this is a good hand against a small number of opponents.

If the hand was played on Party, I think a raise would be useless. But this was PokerStars, where a raise is more likely to do the job.

Say I do complete and we lose Seats 1 and 2.

Now the same fourth street comes along:

Seat 4: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Seat 5: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

If Seat 5 offers that same check, do I take it or do I want to bet to get Seat 4 to fold?

TY

[Andy B]

If you raise and reduce the field and then catch a banana, I would only bet if I really thought that I could buy the pot right there. Your hand is now terrible. Most of the time, I would check and fold to a bet.

[greenage]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise and reduce the field and then catch a banana, I would only bet if I really thought that I could buy the pot right there. Your hand is now terrible. Most of the time, I would check and fold to a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Andy, it’s check/fold for me then as I don’t think Seat 5 would be ready to give up yet.

[SuitedBaby]

A reasonable scenario and I think you have to bet. Hopefully/probably you will lose the 2J and maybe even the Ace if a big part of their thinking was low possibilities and they didn't pair. It isn't pretty on 4th but at least it is cheap. You are behind to the ace but you must keep the mojo. It is a big mistake to start out aggressively then back off just because you caught bad when you have no reason to suspect that they improved. Your 3rd street completion gave you increased bet equity on 4th. Remember that you are facing a bring-in/call and a call/call hands which each have invested only a single small bet. Both of whom probably bricked. In this scenario you proposed on 4th there are only 3.8 small bets versus 3.3 small bets in the real 5-way unraised pot. Not a lot for them to fight over yet but at least the ace certainly has odds to call if the hands were face up. Give them a chance to make a mistake.

Assuming heads-up on the more expensive 5th street if the ace appears to catch bad (as in no ace or queen) and you improve then bet again. Keep the pressure on. With the bet equity and their passive play any 7,Q,or A is an auto-bet, any 9,8,6,5,4,3,or 2 improves you and I would bet them. I might even bet T's, J's and K's since they are big and scary,:-), especially if they caught say a 9. Oops, that about covers it. I do think you have to look hard at the respective boards here on 5th and you may want to take a free card but it is mostly dependent on their cards and not mine since I've been representing the made hand. I'd lean toward betting if it was close. If they pair a small hole card you likely could fold the better hand with a bet. Remember they have to think you are strong high at this point.

Feel for the complexion of this particular stud 8 game and players will help on all these streets. This whole plan of attack wouldn't be routine for me but situationally I like it.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a big mistake to start out aggressively then back off just because you caught bad when you have no reason to suspect that they improved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is true more often in high-only stud than it is in stud/8. In this particular scenario, the AQ has already checked. If you check and the 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif has a flush draw, he will probably bet, and you should be content to fold. If he is on a low, which is much more likely, he will take a free card, which should make you happy. That Queen is a really bad card. Eleven bad cards left in the whole stinkin' deck, and ol' greenage has to catch one. I really think you should check and hope for a free card, even having raised on third.