Rereading TOP (Some content?)

[wrto4556]

What's up SS.

I started rereading TOP and came across a problem in the section on free cards. (pg. 87 for the curious)

Giving or not giving a free card with a marginal hand

Factors to consider are:
1) Your chances of having the best hand
2) The chances the next card will give your opponent the best hand when he would have folded had you bet.
3) The size of the pot
4) The chances you will outdraw a better hand that might call you.

This is all well and good.

Say you have 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif on the button. MP2 open raises and you 3-bet and get him heads up.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He checks you bet (You bet because the pot is semi-large, you have a good chance of having the best hand, and the next card could easily give your opponent a better hand.)

Where I get in trouble is when you are not heads up.

Say you have the same 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP2 and limp after 2 other players, the button comes along, too.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

It's checked to you, do you bet? You're hand has an OK chance to be best, but you have few ways of improving to a hand that already has you beat. should you check and bet/raise a safe turn? According to the rules (or guidelines, rather) your hand is semi-likely to be best, the chances of the next card making your opponent a better hand is semi-likely, the pot is pretty large, and you have few ways of improving. Which of these outway the others in choosing whether to check or bet?

This shouldn't be that hard. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Argus]

Your slim chances of improving make this a bet. Anyone you're ahead of except a smaller pocket pair has more outs to improve than you do, so you should be betting this when checked to you in the second situation. Remember: they can't fold if you don't bet.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
Your slim chances of improving make this a bet. Anyone you're ahead of except a smaller pocket pair has more outs to improve than you do, so you should be betting this when checked to you in the second situation. Remember: they can't fold if you don't bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whith less ways of improving you should be more inclined to check.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your slim chances of improving make this a bet. Anyone you're ahead of except a smaller pocket pair has more outs to improve than you do, so you should be betting this when checked to you in the second situation. Remember: they can't fold if you don't bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whith less ways of improving you should be more inclined to check.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

You have a good chance of having the best hand (only one player behind you to hold a jack), the only draws on this flop are gutshots or backdoors, and you certainly don't want an overcard to your 8s getting a free card.

[wrto4556]

Because only a better hand is going to call you. If you have the book, open it up.

Our chances of having the best hand is pretty decent (bet), its likely that a free card sill hurt us (bet), the pot is semilarge (bet), we have few ways of improving (check). Betting would be OK. But Sklansky gives this same example and says to be more inclined to check a pair of eights on this board. I'm assuming you're in early position and don't have much information...but betting A7 up front is correct (see example).

What about if 2 people were to act behind you? Is that the case where you check and bet/raise a good card on the turn if noone bet the flop...?

[Argus]

I lent this book to a friend, so I can't look up the example. I have read it though. I think you are strongly underestimating the ability of small stakes players to call with even a single overcard. At 2/4 and 3/6 it's common to see a hand like QT or even A9 call this flop. Sklansky's advice is aimed at a game much tighter and tougher than the ones discussed in this forum. Save that kind of check for 20/40; you will get called often by lesser hands playing small stakes. That's what makes this a bet.

Of course the more players left to act behind me the more likely I am to check. With two behind me it depends who they are but I'd lean toward betting (this is the point at which I think it starts to get close). With more players than that I'm usually checking.