About time I pulled the trigger: K3s in BB

[bernie]

I've been in this situation a couple times, not often, but it does come up. I finally pulled the trigger.

UB 3-6 (see Dude, I moved up! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Game is a bit tight, some moves are done postflop.

MP open limps, folded to sb who completes, I check with K3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Flop: 6 6 5 two-tone: My tone!!!

Sb bets out, I raise, MP coldcalls, sb folds

Turn: J o/s

Checked around. Bet here? I think I should've. However it does set up my river play. Might've made the river the same regardless.

River: T o/s

I bet, MP raises, I 3 bet...

hmmm....

b

[rmarotti]

Chip-spewing ROX!

[Argus]

I think this is too much. The 3/6 players I'm used to seeing don't fold the river for one bet if they already raised that street. This pot is pretty small too (4BB going into the river), so your move has to work pretty often for it to be profitable. Putting in 1 bet to win 4 with a fold isn't so bad, but putting in 2 to win 6 when villain has shown aggression is not a winning play in my opinion. It looks like villain was also on a flush draw, or possibly a weak pocket pair. The pocket pair is beating you and calling a 3-bet if it's bigger than 5 and maybe even smaller than 5, and 2 flush draws you were ahead of that might limp made pairs to beat you and are also likely to call.

I don't mind the first bet but probably wouldn't do it myself, but I'm not 3-betting without having seen villain make this sort of laydown before.

[JoshuaD]

He's not folding that river anywhere near often enough to justify that 3-bet. Any hand that'll 2-bet there that isnt' bluffing is calling, and he's not bluffing very often.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not folding that river anywhere near often enough to justify that 3-bet. Any hand that'll 2-bet there that isnt' bluffing is calling, and he's not bluffing very often

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had anything, why didn't he bet the turn behind me? It's kind of obvious that it looks like Im on a draw. He could raise the river with lots of hands thinking I missed. Which I did. Knowing that, and that he's capable of doing that...

When the MP plays postflop this way, what are you putting him on? It seemed too much like a move to me. Which does happen a bit on that site at that limit. It's not Party. I thought there was a good chance he'd fold.

His river raise was odd.

b

[SNOWBALL138]

Why are you raising the flop? The pot is small, so buying outs is not that valuable, and its pretty hard to get a free card from early position.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
and its pretty hard to get a free card from early position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you only have to knock 1 guy out behind you it's not. I was suprised the coldcaller called yet the original bettor folded.

b

[BigEndian]

You sure your cat didn't hit the raise button? You're investing a lot of chips into a pot that is uber-tiny.

- Jim

[chief444]

Bernie,

I agree the river raise is odd. But do you think he raises or calls the river with A-high? I could be wrong because maybe he would but with you checking the turn I'm calling with A-high a lot of the time here. But raising is somewhat pointless no? So what I'm getting at is I think it's either a total BS raise that you may want to consider just calling or a decent hand that is worth calling the 3-bet with. Most hands in between that you hope to fold with the 3-bet would just call your river bet in the first place. Again though, maybe this opponent is an exception. But I'm not crazy about it.

Chief

[einbert]

Against unknowns I absolutely hate the river.

Of a randomly distributed sample, what percentage of players are capable of raising and folding to a three bet on the river?

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and its pretty hard to get a free card from early position.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you only have to knock 1 guy out behind you it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]
If my flop raise gets it heads up against the SB, I'm not checking the turn.

[bobbyi]

I live the flop raise. SB is probably just taking a stab at it, and you have a reasonable chance of taking it down right here or with a followthrough bet on the turn if just SB calls. If you get played with, you have plenty of outs so it's not a problem.

It's the turn that I find difficult. When I get coldcalled and the SB also calls, I'm thinking that a turn bet is almost never taking down the pot. Further, I'm not even thinking it sets me up to steal on the river and I don't have so many outs that I want money going in on the turn. So I'm tempted to check. The flop coldcall is very scary because a lot of people would play that way with a six. Also, SB calling the raise after the coldcall worries me a bit as calling there and going for a check-raise on the turn is how I would expect a lot of people to play flopped trips. Being raised here would suck. It would especially suck to get check-raised when I could have seen a free river. So I'm tempted to check.

But, the flop coldcall could also be a smaller flush draw (or maybe the 78 straight draw). If I bet, there is a decent chance that he will call with a hand I am beating and SB will fold a pair (maybe SB has something like 88 or Q5s) since he is being forced to overcall after an overcard to his pair has hit agaisnt a flop raiser and cold caller. Getting money in from a worse hand than mine while eliminating a better one is a huge coup. I can definitely see why you find betting tempting. I think it's a close decision.

[bernie]

I think a turn bet would've been good regardless of who called. But the free card is there as an option.

It may have worked better, in this case, that the MP checked behind me on the turn. Since it made it kind of obvious that he didn't have anything at that point.

b

[bernie]

I'm putting in 2 to win 7 on the end. He only has to fold less than a 1/3 of the time which really isn't much nor unreasonable if I think his river raise is a bluff or weak hand on the end.

Btw...This isn't a routine play that I'd pull out everytime someone raises me on the river and I have nothing. I can count on one hand the times I can remember seeing it come up.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Against unknowns I absolutely hate the river.



[/ QUOTE ]

Unknowns are more likely to call since you are also unknown to them.

[ QUOTE ]
Of a randomly distributed sample, what percentage of players are capable of raising and folding to a three bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure. Minority. This isn't a general blanket approach on how to play this hand. It's presenting a situation to look for should it come up.

b

[bernie]

I think you misread the post.

The sb folded for a single bet closing the action on the flop. The MP coldcalled behind me on the flop, then checked behind on the turn. Does that alter your thoughts at all?

[ QUOTE ]
When I get coldcalled and the SB also calls, I'm thinking that a turn bet is almost never taking down the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If the sb calls my flop raise, he could easily be going to showdown unless some paint hits the board.

[ QUOTE ]
The flop coldcall is very scary because a lot of people would play that way with a six.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, a 6 or a flushdraw. When he checks behind me on the turn, trips is out of the question.

b

[bernie]

Before this hand gets buried...

Final board: 6 6 5 (J T)

I bet, MP raised, I 3 bet, and MP folded.

b

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet, MP raised, I 3 bet, and MP folded.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless he had specifically the ace high flush draw, you were bluffing with the best hand. You could have just called his river raise and beaten his baby busted flush draw or straight draw just as readily as you beat it by three-betting, except you save a bet when he really has something and the table gets to see you calling a river raise with a king-high busted flush draw and dragging a pot.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you misread the post.

The sb folded for a single bet closing the action on the flop. The MP coldcalled behind me on the flop, then checked behind on the turn. Does that alter your thoughts at all?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh. Yeah, I thought SB called the raise. Yes, that definitely makes a difference. The value in betting was that you often get called by MP who also has a draw and then SB folds the best hand not wanting to overcall. Thus, you win yourself the pot. Heads up, it's unlikely a bet is winning you the pot here, since he probably also has a draw (which is obviously calling) or a slowplayed six. Sometimes he'll have something like 88 instead. Some players are too passive to three-bet that on the flop (or raise preflop) but think it is too good to throw away, so they coldcall. There may be some chance he'll fold that for another bet with the overcard hitting on the turn, but I don't think you're pulling that off very often. Yeah, I like the turn check better now.

[bernie]

Im also not exactly representing a draw on the flop. It looks like a protection raise. Most won't put me on trips as they wouldn't play it that way.

I like your turn thoughts.

b

[bernie]

Yeah. I could've had the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
except you save a bet when he really has something and the table gets to see you calling a river raise with a king-high busted flush draw and dragging a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Image goes both ways, though. It's nice to not have to show it also. Leave a little mystery. This can also have an effect of a slight deterrent (sp?) of players bluffing a little less often. I just wished he'd have folded and showed.

Last time I was in this type of situation, about a month ago, the river bet looked odd. I had Q high busted draw. The raise just looked out of place. I knew I should've 3 bet then, but I pussed out and called to test my thinking/read. The guy showed unimproved AK to drag it. So I watch for that a little more than I used to. It may also be more common on UB than Party. Though it still doesn't come up that often.

b