TOP 5 MOST UNDERRATED WPT PLAYERS

[Smoothcall]

One of the replies on my top 5 most overrated players asked who were the most underrated. This is tougher as there are many overrated but the underrated are not known as much but i'll try.

1)David Sklansky

2)Dewey Tomko

3)Chau Giang

4)Brian Haveson(i don't know alot of his play but he seems to get there in alot of big events and nobody knows him)

5)Toto Leonidas

[obeythekitten]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[badonkadonk]

lee watkinson

[Smoothcall]

oh really. How you know that? I see your using your brain on this one. What if i'm Phil Ivey? You don't know who i am, so how could you know if there far better than me?

[Smoothcall]

I was gonna put him but i saw him make some real dopey plays headup in thowse 2 events so i chose not to. Maybe he deserves to be on the list but just doesn't know how to play headup. He get's a little cookoo headsup.

[the alex]

I will only reply with this:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2086534&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

[Arsene Lupin III]

I was wondering how you could make a worse list than your last one, but you managed to do it.

nh wp.

-adam

[Chris_P]

[ QUOTE ]
oh really. How you know that? I see your using your brain on this one. What if i'm Phil Ivey? You don't know who i am, so how could you know if there far better than me?

[/ QUOTE ]

that is truely pathetic......

[Smoothcall]

Again use your head. You comment is out of emotion(not facts) and has no sense to it whatsoever. What if i was the greatest wpt player? Would it than be incorrect to say they could wipe the floor with me? So it is a stupid comment by them and a stupid one by you. All i ask is to use your head.

[apd138]

[ QUOTE ]
Again use your head. You comment is out of emotion(not facts) and has no sense to it whatsoever. What if i was the greatest wpt player? Would it than be incorrect to say they could wipe the floor with me? So it is a stupid comment by them and a stupid one by you. All i ask is to use your head.

[/ QUOTE ] If I was a pot smoker I would probably love your posts for accidental humor value, as it stands now please stop.

[SNOWBALL138]

David the Dragon Pham, and John Juanda are heavily underrated.

[jojobinks]

[ QUOTE ]
is it hard to type with sklansky dick in your mouth?

nobody gives a rats ass who you think is over/underrated because i think we can all agree they are far better than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

another kitten gem. keep up the good work, homey.

<cough>douchebag<cough>

[Smoothcall]

I don't think there underrated. How could you say this about juanda escepically. They tout him at the top. He might be overrated if anything. Dragon maybe not touted as hi but he might not be great either. I don't know he had some big years in past but slowed down a little. But he does seem to be near ther top of the leader boards most years so maybe your right. He may be be underrated.

[SNOWBALL138]

I should have stated that by "underrated" I mean featured in the poker press, and getting buzz on the message boards.
Clearly Pham and Juanda have placed high in POY rankings.

Daniel N. has a short article on asian poker players being overlooked. I think its worth a read. I think it should still be on his website somewhere.

[ZeeJustin]

There are a lot of asian players that have the respect they deserve in the WPT circuit, however, if you mention their names on a forum like this, most of the readers will have never heard of them before. My top 5 list would contain at least 3 of these players.

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of asian players that have the respect they deserve in the WPT circuit, however, if you mention their names on a forum like this, most of the readers will have never heard of them before. My top 5 list would contain at least 3 of these players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Namely?

[FeliciaLee]

This is a good, fun question for the forum, so don't let random flamers get you down.

I have stuck with this forum since it started, even though it turned into a lot of gossip and rumor spreading right from the first.

Barry and several other players we see on TV have also stuck with it, regardless of the fact that they get flamed and gossiped about in a way unbecoming of a serious forum like 2+2.

We need to keep the forum on track and honorable, even if there are certain posters who have let it sink already. I'm willing to try, as are most who post on WPT.

To answer your question, of course I'm going to say Ted Forrest. Everyone knows in what regard I hold him. Believe it or not, he is not well known outside of the serious group of players at all.

Tony Ma is another who is very quiet, extremely well mannered, some unbelievable play, yet no one knows him.

I have played against both of these men, Tony multiple times, and always felt they were vastly underrated by the "general" viewing public.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[snowlarbear]

[ QUOTE ]
I should have stated that by "underrated" I mean featured in the poker press, and getting buzz on the message boards.
Clearly Pham and Juanda have placed high in POY rankings.

Daniel N. has a short article on asian poker players being overlooked. I think its worth a read. I think it should still be on his website somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, Daniel does mention it, he says it's because their english isnt that great, and thus not very endearing to the american public. probably true.

and toto leonidas... from what I've seen of him, I wasn't that impressed. a lot of suckout-ish play. (based off of TV)

[meow_meow]

I nominate Chris Bigler

[Smoothcall]

I like that choice. Might have to agree there. Although haven't seen enough to see if he has any major flaws. But from what i've seen over the years he can play. And they talk about him on wpt like he's some rich guy that is the fish at the table and is weak tight. I've watched him through the years and think he is better than they give him credit for. Good choice.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the replies on my top 5 most overrated players asked who were the most underrated. This is tougher as there are many overrated but the underrated are not known as much but i'll try.

1)David Sklansky

2)Dewey Tomko

3)Chau Giang

4)Brian Haveson(i don't know alot of his play but he seems to get there in alot of big events and nobody knows him)

5)Toto Leonidas

[/ QUOTE ]

Near as I can remember, Only Tomko and Haveson have earned their way onto a WPT final table, and Haveson played badly IMHO in the hands I saw played on TV in the WPT, WSOP, and the AC tourney Myung won.

While interesting ideas to have, Your methodology is pretty flawed.

[Smoothcall]

My thinking wasn't players most underated that made final tables in WPT events. It was guys that play WPT events that are underrated players. All of these guys don't have the fame and prestige that my overrated players list have. But, with the exception of Haveson, are probably all better than the overrated players. Not that they have to be better though, as all it means is nobody gives them credit for being as good as they are. But i would guess are better than most, if not all, the overrated players. Haveson makes the list not because he plays great but because he is so underrated. If he only played pretty good he would correctly be underrated because nobody thinks he's good. Hope you see how my methodology might not be flawed afterall.

[ZBTHorton]

This is even worse than your other list.

[KDawgCometh]

Casey Kastle has been ever present on final tables(just not making te TV tables) and cashing consistently on teh WPT

[Smoothcall]

Yeah he's a possible.

[srblan]

I agree about Chau but I think Toto is way overrated. I saw him make a couple of ridiculous calls in the USPC. I don't think that Dewey is underrated, people give him quite a bit of credit. I've only seen Sklansky on the WPT once and it was a freeroll...

[bholdr]

Ted Forrest has gotten a bit more respect lately... every time i see him play, he mkes at least one absolutely uncanny read... the pair of deuces vs chad what-his-name in the WSOP 7 card game from last year was just flat out scary. add in the three bracelets in one year (and two more last year)...

if, given my limited knowlage, i were to rank who I thought was the best, Forrest makes top five, no doubt. even with that silly mullet.

[Smoothcall]

Stud is his(ted's) best game i believe. Also Phil Ivey's best game i think.

[ACBob]

Smoothcall,

While it may be sacrilege to say so on this forum, I would hardly say David is close to being underrated.

First, he one of the most recognizable name in the game. Include the sales of his books and reviewers of his articles, virtually no knowledgeable poker player does not know the name Sklansky.

Second, not just name recognition, but his years of live cash games from middle to somewhat high(circa $300-$600) limit play. No saavy person would question he very likely has been a continuous winning player.

Third, by his own statement, he is in the top 5 best players in the world. We recognize, he means in all games.

Fourth, despite the above and his clear mastery of poker theory, his actual achievements at the table both tournaments and cash games, has been just very good to perhaps exceptional.

In sum, to be as recognizable and in fairness revered by so many in the poker community, how could he possibly be underrated?

Bob

[Smoothcall]

Yes Toto is a hard one to figure out. He does make some crazy plays to knock himself out. But is very dangerous player who has had very good results. The reason i put him on the list isnt because he is great. But because if you put him up against Phil Hellmuth, T.J Cloutier, or Doyle Brunson. Everybody knows those guys and consider them "great" while he may be better than all three. If he was considered great like these guys i wouldn't say he was underrated as he would be around there somewhere.

[Smoothcall]

Easy to call him underrated. Here's how. If you put a list of order of players abiltiy to the general public it would look somehting like this.

1)Phil Hellmuth

2)Doyle Brunson

3) T.J. cloutier

4)David Sklansky

If these were the 4 to choose that would be close to the order. Which is clearly wrong. And if you asked the general public they would know the first 3 names much better than Sklansky.

[srblan]

You are being results oriented. Just because he has had good results does not make him good. There is no way that he is better than any of the three you listed in the long run. Layne Flack is a crazy player, but I would put him way above Toto because a large amount of his craziness is based on his reading ability. I watched Toto get lucky on a whole bunch of occasions in a spot where he was merely gambling and managed to make a hand.

[srblan]

That read was just sick. Daniel N. describes him as "scary good" when he's on his game, and he has shown evidence of his ability on several occasions on TV.

[srblan]

Chau will be on the WPT on May 4, he made the final table of the World Poker Open in Tunica.

[Bartman387]

I'm a huge fan of Phil Gordon, but I hardly hear much talk about him, maybe I have just missed it. SO I would say he is underrated.

[srblan]

Phil Gordon would describe himself as overrated... In fact, I've heard him say it several times.

[Smoothcall]

When he's on his game? Does that mean he's not so great sometimes?

[srblan]

Didn't mean to imply anything, just that sometimes he's better than other times. Everybody has good and bad days.

[Smoothcall]

You help my points by saying just because he had good results doesn't make him good. That is what i've been trying to say about Gus and others.

I never said he was better than Layne. Where did you get that? I said he was underrated and Layne is not. Do you know what i mean? Layne gets the press so he can't be underrated. Toto get almost no press. So he could be in fact underrated and be worse than Layne. See what i'm saying?

[Bartman387]

[ QUOTE ]
Phil Gordon would describe himself as overrated... In fact, I've heard him say it several times.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't know that, pretty interesting, goes pretty far to show the type of character he has compared to an a$$ like Mike the mouth or Josh Arieh.

I guess I just never hear him get much pub etc, compared to a lot of the other guys around.

[ACBob]

"1)Phil Hellmuth

2)Doyle Brunson

3) T.J. cloutier

4)David Sklansky

If these were the 4 to choose that would be close to the order. Which is clearly wrong. And if you asked the general public they would know the first 3 names much better than Sklansky."

Smoothcall,

You just stated my case. You named Sklansky with Brunson, Hellmuth and Cloutier.

In most any way we measure success is by achievement. Not potential, not by almost...

I will give you credit that you probably know about what the other three have achieved at the poker table. Hellmuth probably gets a negative in cash games.

Believe me when I say I have great respect for David. The foundation of my game is based his writings and of course other factors. But his achievements on the felt cannot be as high as those you compared. Thus, he cannot be underrated which is your contention and the subject of this thread.

Bob

[srblan]

Having good results in a few different tournaments is a little different than someone like Doyle having good results for 50 years. Watch the WSOP with Doyle playing against Scott Fischman and tell me again that you think he's overrated. He put on an absolute clinic.

I agree with your assertion that Gus is overrated but the plays that I saw Toto make on TV were pretty weak. He didn't show any outstanding reads, just a willingness to gamble with way the worst of it whether or not the odds justified the gamble.

[Chimera]

I would vote for Martin De Knijff, John Hennigan, and David Oppenheim.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
I would vote for Martin De Knijff, John Hennigan, and David Oppenheim.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't agree with De Knijff as he did win the WPT chapmionship, but yeah I dig the others

[Arsene Lupin III]

How many events does one have to play per year to qualify for this list? I don't think DS has entered very many

[Smoothcall]

As long as they have played a wpt event they qualify. The discussion is on there ability and how that matches up with the general publics view of who the better players are. Another words the general public might think Antonio is a better player than Sklansky when this may be totally incorrect.

[Seadood228]

Not sure if they are underrated, but I was pretty impressed with some of these less than known players.

1. James Tippin in Tunica
2. Juha Hellpi in Aruba and the Battle of Champions
3. Chris Chris Karagulleyan at the Bike
4. Martin Deknijff at the Bellagio
5. Moneymaker at the Bay 101

Yeah some are well known, but most do not put them in the upper echelon of players, but they all seemed to play great in their respective WPT episodes.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
David the Dragon Pham, and John Juanda are heavily underrated.



[/ QUOTE ]

Who the frig underattes Juanda, he is on everyones top 5 list.

[FakeKramer]

1. Minh Nguyen
2. Chris Tsipiraldis
3. David Pham
4. Chau Giang
5. Andy Bloch

[Vince Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Minh Nguyen
2. Chris Tsipiraldis
3. David Pham
4. Chau Giang
5. Andy Bloch

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this list.

Vince

[Smoothcall]

Yes these guys are underrated.