Theory question, heads up.

[pokerraja]

I was just in this situation. Heads up. We both have T4000. Blinds are 250/500. We have had a few preflop all in races go back and forth up to this point. Just for this question, lets assume we are of equal skill.

Villian open raises all-in. Im in BB with 2,2. I was almost certain he doesn't have a pair. Hence a coin flip if I call. Now is this a situation in which I exploit any edge and call? Since im almost certain I'm ever so slightly ahead. Comments.

[spentrent]

Equal skill? Take the edge.

Villain's stronger? Take the edge.

Villain's weaker? Scratch your chin, look at the ceiling, take the edge.

[Barcalounger]

I would call, then watch the board show 2 pair and lose with my 2 kicker. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call, then watch the board show 2 pair and lose with my 2 kicker. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

been there before. No actually, he hit his naked flush on the river. but im glad i made the right call.

[Apathy]

Even if your opponent is pushing any ace any broadway cards and K5+ and suited connectors doen to 78, and any pair 22 does not have an edge.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if your opponent is pushing any ace any broadway cards and K5+ and suited connectors doen to 78, and any pair 22 does not have an edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if the range included K2+ (not K5+)?

Making it 5+ seems like a sneaky way to make a point.

[kyro]

I don't see how you can be positive he's not pushing with a pair unless he's pushed every hand so far with the exception of a minraise with every pair he's had. Liar.

Anyways, I probably fold here and push the very next hand almost regardless. I would rather lose because I pushed and he caught a hand rather then lose because I called and his hand was slightly better. Wait, does that make any sense. Is everyone ]on the forum now dumber because of my post?

[raptor517]

this is a fold, all day long. 3uo

[curtains]

If you are playing against a player who plays well, this is a very easy call.

[raptor517]

they are all terrible, they all fold too much from the bb, so you can fold and attack the next hand and the one after. holla

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
they are all terrible, they all fold too much from the bb, so you can fold and attack the next hand and the one after. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it ironic that we berate opponents HU play by saying they fold too much in the BB and we advocate countering these tight idiots by folding more hands in the BB??

(Not disagreeing with you, just thought it was funny)

[curtains]

Some people do have the strategy of pushing every hand in the SB and calling pretty liberally. You can usually tell quickly if this is the case. There are cases where I'd fold, but my default play is actually to call here, although I know everyone hates it. If you are playing someone who has a clue though you are definitely giving up $$ by folding here.

[raptor517]

i am by no means saying its a bad call. i just think that even by pushing every hand from the sb you can have a slightly larger edge than by calling with 22 there. holla

[curtains]

You won't have that edge when you are playing me and I call you with 22 or K8o. You are giving up a lot against someone who is very aggressive heads up by making these tight laydowns, when the BB is 1/8th of your stack.

[curtains]

Some more notes - If your opponent has folded from the SB the past 2 hands, I think it's a lot more reasonable to pass up this edge here, as there is a greater chance they are playing sub-optimally.

If they push the very first hand it's headsup (Because now its more likely they understand to be ultra aggressive here) or have been pushing a reasonable amount, then I think you have to call and take the edge.

[raptor517]

when i play against you, you wont make it to heads up cuz i would have buster yer arse on level 2. bwahahahahahahaha

[curtains]

I would crush you very easily. 4ip

[raptor517]

not if i push every hand. we would lose to the rake, so it would be a gigantic waste of time. bwahahahaha

[curtains]

muahahaohaohahahaohaohahahaoheheoheoha

[pokerraja]

He was pushing very often from SB with hands like J9, K5.

My question is more geared towards, what if both players are equally skilled and I'm certain he does not have a pair. then should i call or fold??

[raptor517]

if both players were equally skilled and you are certain he doesnt have a pair, how can you even think about folding? you are ahead of ANY hand he could have, plus there would be 750 dead chips in the pot. couldnt get it in there faster /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[curtains]

First of all if you are both equally skilled you shuold call whether or not he has a pair. If you know he doesn't have a pair, then its completely insane to fold.

The ONLY and absolutely only reason to not call with 22 here, is because your opponent does something that is so easily exploitable, that it gives you a higher EV than passing up this opportunity, or if you know your opponent is somehow ultra tight and would only limp preflop with hands like KTo.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
...if...you are certain he doesnt have a pair, how can you even think about folding? you are ahead of ANY hand he could have...

[/ QUOTE ]

not to nitpick but that's not true. there are plenty of non-pair hands that are ahead of 22. for example 53s, 54s, 64s, 65s, KQs, QJs, etc, etc...actually all suited connectors except AKs, 43s, and 32s. also, lots of one-gappers and two-gappers like T7s and even three-gappers like T6s.
of course calling against all those is still +CEV in this spot because of the dead money.

[raptor517]

wow, im retarded. yea i guess you are behind ALL of those hands. even like 46/54 behind. im terrible that i dont know that. sheesh. but yea in any case the dead money makes up for it. thanks for pointin out my flaw ilya /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, im retarded. yea i guess you are behind ALL of those hands. even like 46/54 behind. im terrible that i dont know that. sheesh. but yea in any case the dead money makes up for it. thanks for pointin out my flaw ilya /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be too embarassed, i didn't realize all this either until a 53s vs. 22 hand came up in one of my SnGs today and I decided to plug it into the 'Stove just for kicks.

[pokerraja]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, im retarded. yea i guess you are behind ALL of those hands. even like 46/54 behind. im terrible that i dont know that. sheesh. but yea in any case the dead money makes up for it. thanks for pointin out my flaw ilya /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be too embarassed, i didn't realize all this either until a 53s vs. 22 hand came up in one of my SnGs today and I decided to plug it into the 'Stove just for kicks.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for pointing this out. I will admit I did not know this.

[Daliman]

How on earth can you be "almost certain" he has no pair? Also, there are many non pair hands that are actually FAVORED over 22, with JTs being a 54/46 favorite. If he is WAY better than you, it still wouldn't much matter with blinds 250/500. Phil Ivey is welcome to play me anytime at these blinds and he will not win wore than 47% of the time, guaranteed.

I think calling here is just a bad/weak play. There may be some +EV to it, but not much.

[curtains]

Phil Ivey will beat you more than 50% of the time if you fold 22 here. btw there is no reason anyone in the world should be able to beat you over 50% of the time over the long run here.

Everyone knows the advantage you can have when the blinds are 250-500 is very small against almost anyone. Not calling in spots like this where it's clearly +EV (Assuming a good oppontent), can't be right if your opponent is good.

[PrayingMantis]

I think against a reasonable/good opponent it's a call. Against a bad (too tight HU, that is) player folding might be a better option.

[curtains]

I hate when I make a bunch of grammatical errors and its too late to edit.

[Zelcious]

I agree, so does my software. If he's pushing with his top 25% or more you have a slight edge but not much at all, but if he's pushing with 15% or better you make a clear misstake.

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, so does my software. If he's pushing with his top 25% or more you have a slight edge but not much at all, but if he's pushing with 15% or better you make a clear misstake.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the more likely case that he's pushing with the top 50-60% of hands (conservatively speaking)

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...if...you are certain he doesnt have a pair, how can you even think about folding? you are ahead of ANY hand he could have...

[/ QUOTE ]

not to nitpick but that's not true. there are plenty of non-pair hands that are ahead of 22. for example 53s, 54s, 64s, 65s, KQs, QJs, etc, etc...actually all suited connectors except AKs, 43s, and 32s. also, lots of one-gappers and two-gappers like T7s and even three-gappers like T6s.
of course calling against all those is still +CEV in this spot because of the dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]


Stupid question, but is AK out here only bc of its limited str8 potential? (as 43 32s?) That sways the %s that much?

So does that mean, if it were possible to put your opponent on an underpair, you're better off calling with JQs than AKs?

[sofere]

Yup...as long as the pair isn't JJ or QQ. Think about it...you have just as much chance of hitting a pair with QJ as AK. The straight and flush draws are nice bonuses.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup...as long as the pair isn't JJ or QQ. Think about it...you have just as much chance of hitting a pair with QJ as AK. The straight and flush draws are nice bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thx...of course I realized that JQ or 78 for that matter is the same in that regard...what I didnt know was that AK, being a non-open ended starting hand for str8s, moved %s by that much (I guess a few clicks...thought it was far less, to be negligible originally)

[sofere]

I could be wrong, but I think its about a 2% bonus for a flush draw and slightly less than that for a straight draw heads up.

[pooh74]

good to know...thx bro

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, so does my software. If he's pushing with his top 25% or more you have a slight edge but not much at all, but if he's pushing with 15% or better you make a clear misstake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only a very very bad headsup player would push with so few hands. If someone pushes on the very first hand I'm going to assume they are more likely to be someone who is pushing and calling with a reasonable range of hands, and thus Im calling with 22. If they've folded 2 times from the SB, I'm more likely to fold.

However against a good player, folding hands like 22 here is long term suicide.