My results after my first 500 $11s

[1C5]

Not bad, could be worse, could be better.
I am leaning towards the stats out the window approach as others on the board have done.

With that being said, the final results:

ROI 17.6%

ITM 39.8%

Profit: $970
Finishes:

1st 12.0% 60
2nd 13.8% 69
3rd 14.0% 70
4th 16.8% 84
5th 16.4% 82
6th 13.2% 66
7th 7.0% 35
8th 4.0% 20
9th 2.0% 10
10th 0.8% 4


And just to note. I didn't make a single penny in my last 300 SnGs. That's right. First 200 I had a 45+% ROI and 2nd 300 I had a 0 ROI. Pretty frustrating to say the least.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Well done. I can't believe you only have 4 10th place finishes. Impressive.

As for your last 300 SnG, don't sweat it. You are trying to get better. It's kind of like golf lessons. Usually your score gets worse while you try to improve your swing. However, once it clicks, you will be a better player. 1 step backwards, 2 steps forward.

I'm a big fan of moving up when your bankroll allows, not waiting for some arbitrary sample size or ROI.

Good luck in the next 500 and the 20s.

[kspade]

[ QUOTE ]
Well done. I can't believe you only have 4 10th place finishes. Impressive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious???!! If so, I need to take you off my favorite poster list. Any tighter than tight player can have practically 0 10th place finishes. Please enlighten me as to how I misunderstood your post.... that must be it.... can't wait to eat crow...... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well done. I can't believe you only have 4 10th place finishes. Impressive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious???!! If so, I need to take you off my favorite poster list. Any tighter than tight player can have practically 0 10th place finishes. Please enlighten me as to how I misunderstood your post.... that must be it.... can't wait to eat crow...... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing all in w/ AA/KK/QQ everytime will cause u to lose 1/5 times.... also, set over set, and the like will likely happe more than 4 times in 500 SNG's

[kspade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well done. I can't believe you only have 4 10th place finishes. Impressive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious???!! If so, I need to take you off my favorite poster list. Any tighter than tight player can have practically 0 10th place finishes. Please enlighten me as to how I misunderstood your post.... that must be it.... can't wait to eat crow...... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing all in w/ AA/KK/QQ everytime will cause u to lose 1/5 times.... also, set over set, and the like will likely happe more than 4 times in 500 SNG's

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! Thus it doesn't seem that 4 10th place finishes means that one is playing well, i.e., impressive.

[Unparagoned]

but it does mean you haven't been sucked out on very many times in that situation, which is impressive in and of itself...

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well done. I can't believe you only have 4 10th place finishes. Impressive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious???!! If so, I need to take you off my favorite poster list. Any tighter than tight player can have practically 0 10th place finishes. Please enlighten me as to how I misunderstood your post.... that must be it.... can't wait to eat crow...... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I'm impressed with his play or impressed by this statistical anomally. Maybe impressed isn't the right word...I need to borrow Irie's vocabulary.

This might make an interesting discussion. What is the correct % of 10th place finishes?

From what I remember from the 10s, if you want to finish 10th, you are going to have a lot of competition. Surviving 2 hands is often enough to avoid 10th.

4/500 is impressive, but is probably too low if he keeps that same % in the 20s and 30s (I doubt he will). Being tight is not the goal. Winning $ is the goal.

[kyro]

I'm curious if you use the "push with any two pretty cards" strategy at the 11s. It seems that you have more 3rds and 4ths than you would like. I'm assuming that the blinds are still fairly small around the bubble. If they are, check some of your HH to make sure you are being pragmatic about your pushes. If they're going to call you with crap, don't bother pushing, especially if the blinds are still low. That being said, 17.6% is nothing to cry about. If you have the BR (I say at least $600), then I'd say take the step up. Or, you could try doing what I do if you multi-table. Play one or two 11s and throw in a 22. Good luck!

[kspade]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I'm impressed with his play or impressed by this statistical anomally. Maybe impressed isn't the right word...I need to borrow Irie's vocabulary.

This might make an interesting discussion. What is the correct % of 10th place finishes?

From what I remember from the 10s, if you want to finish 10th, you are going to have a lot of competition. Surviving 2 hands is often enough to avoid 10th.

4/500 is impressive, but is probably too low if he keeps that same % in the 20s and 30s (I doubt he will). Being tight is not the goal. Winning $ is the goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now we're speaking the same language. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Damn that English undergrad major - I always knew it was good for nothing. It's gotten me in trouble twice now on the boards.

You're right, it should be possible to figure out an optimal # of 10th place finishes. I'd do it.... but I majored in English, not Math. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Poolgod32]

Nice numbers. Did you multitable or just singles? I cant wait to post my numbers. Im at 140 played
It will feel great just to finish 500!!

[Scuba Chuck]

It's only April 5th. I've played 148 $33s. I have 3 10th place finishes so far. Am I a fish?

Scuba.

[Maulik]

534 $10+1 Party network

Your results were much better than mine; great job. That said, I'd like to mention I experienced a huge learning curve during an 18 tournament downswing last week, where I learned positional bets and how to manage chip stacks in relation to blinds. This should account for much better play post lvl 3 pre ITM.

edit: I've been 4-8 tabling at all times.

<font color="green">

$580
ROI 10.14%
Fin In The $: 36.33

</font>

Places:

1 56
2 74
3 64
4 78
5 81
6 67
7 48
8 32
9 19
10 15

[1C5]

Yeah I di find I am getting called lots by any 2 cards in the $11s but I am usually not pushing too soon I don't think.

I am now slowly moving to the 22s as my bankroll is plenty big enough, I just wanted to play 500 games at the $11s to make sure I am a winning player and make my rookie mistakes at the 11s where it is less costly.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
534 $10+1 Party network

Your results were much better than mine; great job. That said, I'd like to mention I experienced a huge learning curve during an 18 tournament downswing last week, where I learned positional bets and how to manage chip stacks in relation to blinds. This should account for much better play post lvl 3 pre ITM.



[/ QUOTE ]

Can you give me an example of playing a hand differently now that you learnt the new technique?

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice numbers. Did you multitable or just singles? I cant wait to post my numbers. Im at 140 played
It will feel great just to finish 500!!

[/ QUOTE ]

90% of these have been 4 at a time. I don't have the time to play 500 games one at a time. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
It's only April 5th. I've played 148 $33s. I have 3 10th place finishes so far. Am I a fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I'm impressed with his play or impressed by this statistical anomally. Maybe impressed isn't the right word...I need to borrow Irie's vocabulary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Impressed means to be deeply or markedly affected or influenced.

Since you were probably more surprised than affected, perhaps you were gobsmacked.

[ QUOTE ]
This might make an interesting discussion. What is the correct % of 10th place finishes?

[/ QUOTE ]

The correct percentage is 3.7%. Can anybody see why?

[ QUOTE ]

4/500 is impressive, but is probably too low if he keeps that same % in the 20s and 30s (I doubt he will). Being tight is not the goal. Winning $ is the goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

4/500 is absolutely too low. What that means is that he is losing with Aces, sets and straights and not going broke. If you are losing with flopped sets and not going broke, you are playing your sets incorrectly.

This is also why his 1st place percentage is lower that he would like. If you don't extract chips when you are lucky enough to make an early hand, your first place percentage will suffer.

10th place is merely a side effect of optimal chip extraction tactics. You want all of your chips in pre-flop when you have aces against an underpair. You want all of your chips in on the flop if you have bottom set against top pair. But if you get your chips in appropriately, you will go broke first more often than 4 in 500.

Irieguy

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

4/500 is absolutely too low. What that means is that he is losing with Aces, sets and straights and not going broke. If you are losing with flopped sets and not going broke, you are playing your sets incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt this is true. Let's estimate how many busted sets if he were playing them to go broke he might have had.

We'll be charitable and guess that if he hasn't busted in the first 10 hands, then somebody else will bust. I don't play at Party, but it sounds like this is probably too many hands to go without somebody busting at the 10s. So there are 5000 hands that we need to consider. 6.5% of those hands he'll be dealt a pocket pair, or 325 hands. Let's assume he plays all of these regardless of the preflop action. Of those, he'll end up with a set on the flop about 11% of the time, or 35 hands. How many of these hands will his set get beat on? I have a hard time estimating this, but let's guess 20%. Then we're looking at 7 or so 10th place finishes, which is not so hugely different from 4. Small sample size, blah blah blah. I think my assumptions probably tend to inflate this number, too, but I'm easily convinced otherwise. So I think it's hard to infer much of anything about his play. The key is that, as I believe is true, people bust quickly in 10s, so 500 SNGs is not a ton of hands available to bust first with.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4/500 is absolutely too low. What that means is that he is losing with Aces, sets and straights and not going broke. If you are losing with flopped sets and not going broke, you are playing your sets incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt this is true. Let's estimate how many busted sets if he were playing them to go broke he might have had.

We'll be charitable and guess that if he hasn't busted in the first 10 hands, then somebody else will bust. I don't play at Party, but it sounds like this is probably too many hands to go without somebody busting at the 10s. So there are 5000 hands that we need to consider. 6.5% of those hands he'll be dealt a pocket pair, or 325 hands. Let's assume he plays all of these regardless of the preflop action. Of those, he'll end up with a set on the flop about 11% of the time, or 35 hands. How many of these hands will his set get beat on? I have a hard time estimating this, but let's guess 20%. Then we're looking at 7 or so 10th place finishes, which is not so hugely different from 4. Small sample size, blah blah blah. I think my assumptions probably tend to inflate this number, too, but I'm easily convinced otherwise. So I think it's hard to infer much of anything about his play. The key is that, as I believe is true, people bust quickly in 10s, so 500 SNGs is not a ton of hands available to bust first with.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't consider all of the other nut or near-nut hands that you will flop from time to time: flushes, straights, trips with non-paired hole-cards, etc.

No, there are not a ton of hands with which to bust first... but it should happen more than 1% of the time. In fact, it does. You don't need to estimate, or theorize, either. Just look at the stats for the 5-10 most active players on this forum. You have, at your virtual finger tips, tens of thousands of SNGs worth of data. How often do the most consistent winners finish 10th? Well, it varies a bit... but it's pretty close to 3-4% for just about everybody that I know. (Higher for the higher limit players)

You will make big hands early in a SNG from time to time. You are correct to get as many of your chips into the pot as possible when this happens. Sometimes your opponent will not be drawing dead and you will lose. This will happen more frequently than 4 per 500.

Irieguy

[shakingspear]

Congrats on your success.

I was wondering how much time it took you to get up to 500 tournies played? Do you play anything else or just SnGs? I usually play cash games, but recently started getting into SnGs.

Thanks.

[1C5]

I think only losing 10th place 4 times is just a fluke of not getting enough good hands in the first couple of rounds and then losing with them. I am prepared to go out in 10th with straights, flushes, 3 of a kind or AA KK and last night I lost first hand with QQ loss to KK. Would have only been 3 times without that hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Congrats on your success.

I was wondering how much time it took you to get up to 500 tournies played? Do you play anything else or just SnGs? I usually play cash games, but recently started getting into SnGs.

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play 4 agmes at a time except for my 1st 50, I played, 1,2 then 3 tables for those ones. Started in December so I don't play too much compared to many on this forum.
Started off in limit games, then moved to SnGs and now I am also playing NL25 on party to clear my bonuses and learn how to play it. Don't play limit anymore as I found that rather boring after 30,000 hands.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
It's only April 5th. I've played 148 $33s. I have 3 10th place finishes so far. I am a fish

Scuba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post!


But that wasn't the point of this thread

(Just kidding with ya Scuba)

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't consider all of the other nut or near-nut hands that you will flop from time to time: flushes, straights, trips with non-paired hole-cards, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. Given the conventional 2+2 wisdom of how to play the first level of an SNG, though, I'm assuming fairly tight play on 1C5's part. What else is he going to be playing in level 1? AK? AQs? The number of straights and flushes he's likely to get out of these kind of holdings, and the number of times he gets beat while having such hands, is going to contribute maybe one or two more first busts, would be my guess. TPTK type hands will add a couple more from those holdings, and then we're probably up near the 2% range. So 4 is perhaps a little low, but I still maintain that it is not so low over a large enough number of SNGs to conclude anything meaningful about 1C5's play.


[ QUOTE ]
Just look at the stats for the 5-10 most active players on this forum. You have, at your virtual finger tips, tens of thousands of SNGs worth of data. How often do the most consistent winners finish 10th? Well, it varies a bit... but it's pretty close to 3-4% for just about everybody that I know. (Higher for the higher limit players)


[/ QUOTE ]

One would expect it to be higher at higher limits, for the simple reason that you can't count on there being a large number of fish who are likely to bust out before you. At sufficiently high buy-ins, having 1000 chips probably affects things as well. So that doesn't surprise me. If we're not talking specifically about 10s, or if 1C5 plays a somewhat more open game than I'd imagine he does, then my argument isn't very worthwhile.

For the record, I bust out first about 7% of the time, but this is based on an even smaller sample (I'm a single tabler who plays at best sporadically) at Paradise where I have a little more in chips to start with, it's not at the 10s, and I like splashing around early probably somewhat more than is optimal.

[KJ o]

There is a distinct difference between the winnigest players' % of 10's and a $10 player. As has been mentioned, the first player to bust busts far earlier in a $10 than in a $200, so you have far fewer hands where you have the possibility of busting first in a $10.

What may be reasonanly consistent between buy-ins is the number of busts on level 1, but we don't have those stats available. (Or do we?)

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]

This might make an interesting discussion. What is the correct % of 10th place finishes?

[ QUOTE ]


The correct percentage is 3.7%. Can anybody see why?



[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]



I dont see why can someone explain /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

The correct percentage is 3.7%. Can anybody see why?


[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a bit high to me. I always 'guessed' that your 'correct percentage' would be a bit closer to 3% than 4% (FWIW, my guess has been 3.3% but I've never tried to run #s to support this). This is based on your writings and my own thinkings. Now, perhaps I've been in the 22s and/or 33s for too long and the 3.7% reflects the difference in players willing to suckout on you in the first few hands of an $11 so you have more chip extracting opportunities (at the same time, since more ppl are busting early, I'd assume the ideal % would stay close or get even closer to 3%).

I find this to be an interesting theoretical aside...

However, in every 500 STT set just a couple of different early results can skew one's 10th place results as looking too loose or too tight - so I'm not as surprised as Phil but agree that the number of 10th stated in the OP is certainly quite a bit lower than the ideal.

Yugoslav
Who actually is even more intersted in what Lori thinks the ideal % is, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Maulik]

Let's suppose we are 5 handed and not yet ITM. The blinds are about 150/300 if I remember correctly and I have 1500 chips. Someone with 750 chips pushes and I'm holding AQs. During my early play I would have called and been calling a coinflip. Now, I won't settle for the coinflip, I'll make the bets and if it comes then so be it.

Simiarly, if I had AQs and had 2000 chips, I use to think pushing allin is correct at lvl5, but there is no need for me to risk all my chips here.

Were you looking for a more thorough response of does this provide sufficent example?

[1C5]

Thanks for the answers. But what I have found is that in your 1st example, the guy is often pushing with Ax so it would not be a coinflip to call but more often then not you will be a 70% fav to win the hand. And insta call if you are in the BB I hope for you...

[Maulik]

1c5- so you would call the push in the aforementioned example?

[JasonP530]

forget about a coinflip. You will have the best hand a much greater percentage of the time. With the blinds going to take 450 from him, he would push a lot more than a pockt pair.

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
1c5- so you would call the push in the aforementioned example?

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly, i think your range of hands is too narrow

he's going to post almost half his stack when the blind hits him. ie- desperate

you're racing many of his pushing hands, dominating a bunch of them and trailing a few of them. i think it's a pretty clear call in that situation.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4/500 is absolutely too low. What that means is that he is losing with Aces, sets and straights and not going broke. If you are losing with flopped sets and not going broke, you are playing your sets incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt this is true. Let's estimate how many busted sets if he were playing them to go broke he might have had.

We'll be charitable and guess that if he hasn't busted in the first 10 hands, then somebody else will bust. I don't play at Party, but it sounds like this is probably too many hands to go without somebody busting at the 10s. So there are 5000 hands that we need to consider. 6.5% of those hands he'll be dealt a pocket pair, or 325 hands. Let's assume he plays all of these regardless of the preflop action. Of those, he'll end up with a set on the flop about 11% of the time, or 35 hands. How many of these hands will his set get beat on? I have a hard time estimating this, but let's guess 20%. Then we're looking at 7 or so 10th place finishes, which is not so hugely different from 4. Small sample size, blah blah blah. I think my assumptions probably tend to inflate this number, too, but I'm easily convinced otherwise. So I think it's hard to infer much of anything about his play. The key is that, as I believe is true, people bust quickly in 10s, so 500 SNGs is not a ton of hands available to bust first with.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't consider all of the other nut or near-nut hands that you will flop from time to time: flushes, straights, trips with non-paired hole-cards, etc.

No, there are not a ton of hands with which to bust first... but it should happen more than 1% of the time. In fact, it does. You don't need to estimate, or theorize, either. Just look at the stats for the 5-10 most active players on this forum. You have, at your virtual finger tips, tens of thousands of SNGs worth of data. How often do the most consistent winners finish 10th? Well, it varies a bit... but it's pretty close to 3-4% for just about everybody that I know. (Higher for the higher limit players)

You will make big hands early in a SNG from time to time. You are correct to get as many of your chips into the pot as possible when this happens. Sometimes your opponent will not be drawing dead and you will lose. This will happen more frequently than 4 per 500.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is - at the 10's you have monkeys raising huge and going all in the first hand so often that you sometimes can't play many of the small pairs you're dealt. His stats are nowhere near out of line for the $10's.

Edit - yeah and without reading all the replies, a few other people already said this lol.

[Maulik]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2093663&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

IC5, this is another mistake I was making which I corrected during my bad streak.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
1c5- so you would call the push in the aforementioned example?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I would call the push here if no one else before me called it.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2093663&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

IC5, this is another mistake I was making which I corrected during my bad streak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never made this mistake (yet) /images/graemlins/grin.gif