PLO8 betting question

[flair1239]

How much EV am I giving up, by potting evertime I bet? I play $25PLO8 as a break from holdem. I am not familiar with PL structure as I am primarily a LHE player.

My logic for the $25 level anyway, is that the players are so loose, that when I do have a hand I am getting good value by one or two people call a pot sized bet, rather than worrying about keeping everyone in. I have also been thinking that this gives me semi-bluff bets more deceptive value.

This strategy even though it seems effective at the $25 level, seems a little too hamfisted to be effective in tougher games.

Any suggested reading or advice?

[hurlyburly]

Are you potting it when you have a 2-way lock or 1-way? Try to manipulate the pot with smaller bets to make sure that you can get everything in on the river.

You're using a "loose the most, win the least" strategy in a tough game, but you have to look pretty hard to find a tough PLO8 game online.

[HopeydaFish]

This is my two cents and what has been working for me:

I agree with the previous poster that you're using a "win the least, lose the most" strategy. You'll scoop a bunch of small pots thanks to everyone folding, only to eventually lose a huge pot when you get called and outdrawn. Slowplaying is the way to go in loose games when you have a strong hand. You want to bet enough each round so that you can go all-in on the river if you have either the nut high and/or the nut low, or the nut high and a good shot at the nut low. By overbetting your hands in the early streets you're chasing out all of the players that have weak hands but who might otherwise be inclined to chase if you don't make it too expensive for them. The only players who will call your overbet are extremely loose players (and even *they* have standards when it comes to calling) and players with monster hands. Even in the loosest games, you won't consistently find players loose enough to call huge bets without strong hands.

In O/8, I find it's much more profitable to slowly bleed dry your loose opponents over a long period rather than continually trying for the big scores. If you keep overbetting early on with strong hands hoping for loose calls, eventually you'll end up on the short end of the stick when your fish hit on the river. It's better to wait for the river and knowing that you have the nuts before making your move. Many fish will call your all-in on the river with what their inexperienced eyes perceive to be a strong hand, especially if they feel pot committed after you've induced them to bet a few units on each street before the river.

[ QUOTE ]
How much EV am I giving up, by potting evertime I bet? I play $25PLO8 as a break from holdem. I am not familiar with PL structure as I am primarily a LHE player.

My logic for the $25 level anyway, is that the players are so loose, that when I do have a hand I am getting good value by one or two people call a pot sized bet, rather than worrying about keeping everyone in. I have also been thinking that this gives me semi-bluff bets more deceptive value.

This strategy even though it seems effective at the $25 level, seems a little too hamfisted to be effective in tougher games.

Any suggested reading or advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

[flair1239]

OK, now what about in the name of hand protection. It would seem to me in a mult-way pot, with certain hands, you are rooting for people to fold. I mean with a hand like a straight, that is vulnerable to redraws, you don't want to give your opponents the proper odds to draw...do you?

[JoshuaMayes]

I must disagree with the other two posters. At the $25 PLO8 tables, the players are so bad that they will continually pay you off with weak hands even if you bet pot from start to finish.

"Slow-playing," like one poster recommended, is almost always wrong in this game. The last thing that you want to do is bet small and encourage weak drawing hands to stick around and suck out on you for half the pot. You are usually going to be betting with the nuts, or close to it, in at least one direction. Unless you hold quads or an overfull, a nut high hand will usually be very vulnerable. Why would you want to "slowplay" and let someone draw out on you? Along the same lines, if you hold a nut high, for example the nut flush, on a board with a low draw, you don't want to let someone with a low draw stick around cheaply and take half your pot. If they are willing to call pot-sized bets to draw at half the pot, which many are, god bless.

I often see players "slowplay" the flopped nuts, only to give away all or half of the pot. Many times these players end up giving away their whole stack by waiting until they are beat to get agressive. Don't make this mistake.

Similarly, if you hold a made nut low with a weak high, like top pair, you want push anyone not holding a nut low out of the pot. You definitely don't want to let weak straight and flush draws hang around to take half the pot from you. If someone pays the pot to draw in one direction, so much the better. These bets will also set you up to get paid off on your nut-nut hands. When people see you push hard with a nut low and a weak high, they will remember you as a "bad player" who "raises the low." They will then call you down with all kinds of raggedy two-way hands when you have a monster.

Always betting the pot also sets up your bluffs. If you make smallish bets you have the nuts, you will be forced to make smallish bets when you are bluffing, lest you give away the bluff. But, of course, it is much easier to call a small bluff than a large one. If instead, you always bet the pot, you can also bet the pot when you bluff, making it harder for your opponent to call and pick it off.

Obviously, against tough opponents, you will have to mix it up a little, but I would not recommend doing so by betting less than the pot. Instead, bluff a little more, or, better yet, find a softer game.

[hurlyburly]

That's a different matter. If you are protecting your hand, then it's all good to ruin the odds for the draws. Situations where only 1 low card flops and you have position make for some great bluff opportunities as well. In cases like those, I believe it's correct to try to push people out.

[GooperMC]

I completely agree with Joshua. I'm OK with slowplaying when your hand isn't vulnerable but in O8 when is your hand not vulnerable? If you are playing high you want to push out the low draws, if you are playing the nut low with a mediocre high you want to push out the better high draws.

Unless you flop top boat, quads, or the nut / nut there is going to be someone that has a draw to take some of the pot away from you. Don't let that player draw cheap.

[HopeydaFish]

Okay, upon further reflection, and after re-reading what I posted before, I'll clarify my answer.

After the flop, if I hold the nut low and don't have much chance at the high, I'll bet the pot to try to chase everyone out. When I get called down, there'll always be someone at the table who gets upset that I was "betting the low". I ignore these people because in my mind, I'm not betting the low, I'm bluffing the high. If I get more than one caller, I won't bet strong on the turn unless a scare card comes up, and then I might bet the pot again. If you get more than one caller, I've found that it's generally because that one of the callers also has the nut low as well, and then you end up halving the low, and come out behind in the end.

If I have the nut high after the flop, I'll make a fairly strong bet to thin the field, but not enough to win the pot then and there (unless the pot was large enough from pre-flop betting to make it worthwhile). I'll usually bet enough to get a few callers to build the pot.

However, if I'm holding the nut high after the flop, and it is very vulnerable to being beaten (such as if I've got a Q high straight, but there are two suited cards on the board), I won't overbet. Some people will overbet to try get rid of the chasers, but as was stated earlier, most of the chasers will call you anyway if they're holding a four-flush or a set or even two pair, and then when a scare card hits on the turn, what do you do when one of your opponents makes a pot-sized bet?

If I hold the nuts after the turn, I'll then make a pot sized bet if there are cards left that can hurt me.

However, if I am very confident on the turn that I'll still hold the nuts after the river, I'll make another bet that's just enough to get some callers, but not enough to scare everyone away (unless the pot is big enough to make it worthwhile to scoop right then and there).

On the river, I'll almost always bet the pot if I hold the nut high or low. Trying to get too cutesy on the river usually ends up with money being left on the table.