"Oh, it's just me and you? I check.."

[bad beetz]

What's with this at Low limit games? friends, or even people who don't know each other, will check hands all the way through heads up. If this is not the case they will often check the river knowing they have the best hand. When I push a small +EV value bet on the river, sometimes people look at me like I'm an jerk.

I play quietly, and would never insult another player. I try not to check-raise the river heads up at LL like Sklansky and Malmuth suggest, but I refuse to not bet at all and to miss a bet on the river just to be cordial, and then I feel like I get chastised for it. I understand that some of them are just there to have fun, and that means playing lots of hands, and not losing too much on each hand. But, that's not why I'm there.

anybody ever miss a bet on purpose to "be nice?"

As much as I hate to say I use to be like this.....I play a lot of LL at Boulder Station where you see the same faces every time...and you have a tendency to check with a regular even with the best hand. . I stopped doing this cause I don't believe in soft playing anyone....look, the object of poker is the win everyone elses money...Now it bothers me when I see two old men check each other down when they both hit their sets.....oh well....I try not to let it bother me, as long as continue to play hard.....On the other hand....if I'm in a hand with a friend...I rarely check-raise, I'll usually bet out my hand if I hit and hope he mucks......it's my way of saying, "I have the goods, please get out."

[bernie]

i hate soft players. that is, i f*cking hate em. unless theyre softplaying me and i have a draw /forums/images/icons/grin.gif then when i hit it, i bet into them /forums/images/icons/cool.gif then ya get that wimpy 'how could you?' look. the mope.

you must love the reaction after a guy softplays you HU, then in a later hand, it's HU and you bet into him. i love that look i get. which now, most regulars know that im going to play them hard.

the problem with softplaying is when they dont do it with just anyone on the table. they do it with their friends but not others. that's BS. which is why i play hard on everyone. screw em. some may argue about the rake once it's HU. screw it, if i have a hand, im betting into the guy.

one guy questioned my bet when me a and a greenhorn buddy were HU on the turn. he checked and i bet.

theguy said, "man, that's harsh. betting into your buddy like that."

i looked at him and said, smiling "Outside this ring," used my hands to indicate the rail around the edge of the table, "we're buds, but inside, it's war."

the guy just shook his head. 'sorry pal, its how the game goes.' is what i thought.

b

[Homer]

I think a lot of the time players say this because they have a weak hand and do not want you to bet into them. I don't think it is because they are trying to be nice, most of the time. Honestly, have you ever met a nice poker player? When someone says this to me, I auto-bet. A lot of the time they fold, or take one off and fold on the next street.

There are times, however, in which I think it is acceptable to check it down when it gets to be heads-up. Others may disagree with this, but I was at a very loose table and wanted to encourage it to stay that way. Basically, I was playing with a guy who was completely drunk and had never played before. He was asking me during the hands if a flush beats a full house, and other extremely basic questions. He was burning through money like mad. A hand came up where it became heads-up between me and him. I was rolled-up (it was stud), hit the full house on the turn, and was betting the whole way. It was fairly obvious he was chasing a straight (probably inside heh) the whole way. When I bet on the river, he looked as if he was going to raise, at which point I flashed my hole cards and said, save your money and buy us all drinks instead (or something stupid like that). Maybe it was foolish to cost myself 3 BB's there, but I wanted this guy to get a little more bang for his buck, and knew he would ultimately lose it anyway. I wanted him to feel welcome to come back to the poker table the next time he got drunk, so he could contribute some more.

Anyhoo, this was a rare instance for me. Most of the time, I would keep betting if I thought I had the best of it, especially against a player who would chastise me for it. Hell, if they are going to get mad at you for simply betting, you might as well go ahead and checkraise them.

Another thought...I am least nice heads-up when playing against my friends. They all think poker is about posturing and keeping a poker face and bluffing. Thus, they give my bets and raises no respect (especially since they know I play often, they think I must be an expert bluffer...heh). So, I often check, and they will auto-bet (bluffing of course), at which point I raise. After they inevitably call, I give off a quick look of disappointment. They think they are experts for picking up a tell from me. So I check on the next card, and they bet again. Again, I checkraise. To see their face after this is truly a great thrill. My goal is to pull off a triple checkraise against one of them. Someday...

I rambled a lot and have no idea if I answered your question. If I did, good for me. If not, I am Homer, what do you expect??

-- Homer

[bad beetz]

I have played with some of my friends who are better players. We check-raise the hell out of each other. I'll chop, but that's it. It's no holds barred. I feel with a regular, that's just an "aquaintance," it's much harder to bet on the river.

[bad beetz]

[SittingBull]

nice to a big contributor is ALWAYS the proper poker attitude.
I would advise the contributor not to call my last bet and THEN show him my big hand.
Boy! Recreational players DO love to donate their money to "nice honest players". They leave the table contented because they lost to a "nice guy".

So U presented a disappointed look to your poker buddies.
:Lucky for U they did not study Caro's tells(LOL)! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I agree with U 100%.
U want to do everything in your power to keep the "bread" on the table.
A happy recreational player will return to play in your "friendly game".

Happy pokering, Homer! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Sitting Bull

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

While I agree with all the sentiments about being a gentleman at the table: not deriding an opponent, not teching, not abusing, I must disagree with ever showing mercy in the play of the game.

At the lower levels, the rake is much more punitive and it's imperative to always maximize your return. Sure, the person to whom you give a break will eventually put that money in the pot, but you have no guarantee that you'll be in the position to win it that time. After all, if you're playing right, you'll be watching most of the hands he loses.

While winning money isn't the *only* reason I'm at the table, it sure is the most important. I don't ask for mercy from others, so I don't show any either. Mercy may have its place in life, but the poker table isn't one of them.

[Homer]

I agree with everything you said, but I still don't feel bad about doing what I did. I feel that it couldn't have been too much of a -EV play on my part. I figure he may get up and walk if he loses too quickly, but if he loses more slowly, he may invest another $100 or $200, which he will certainly lose. Even if $5-$10 of that money comes my way, I come close to breaking even from my previous play. And even if I don't get the money, I am there to have fun and I want other people to enjoy themselves too. I'd rather let this guy have fun and personally lose $5 in EV than drive him away from the table. Perhaps I feel this way because when I was beginning to play, I was berated by other players, physically threatened by a dealer for asking him to enforce the rules, etc. I don't want this guy to have the same impression of poker as I had initially. I think I may feel differently if I was playing professionally. At that level, you need to take every bit of EV you can get, otherwise you won't make it (and the guy you soft-played won't be there to give you a handout...heh).

-- Homer

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I don't disagree with you in spirit. Maybe because I've never been berated or had anybody try to intimidate me at the table (may have something to do with my shaved-head goateed biker look), even though I'm fat and 51.

In a sense, I'm there to have fun, too. But regardless of the game, whether it's Thursday night team trivia, the once a year work softball game, darts or pool, I have fun by competing and playing as hard as I can to win.

I've always thought that the most misunderstood phrase was "it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game." To me this doesn't mean that winning is unimportant. It means that as long as you've given 100% you can hold your head up after a loss. Well, so much for philosophy.

[bernie]

"I was berated by other players, physically threatened by a dealer for asking him to enforce the rules, etc. I don't want this guy to have the same impression of poker as I had initially."

these are very different from eachother...this is nothing lke berating a player. are you actually saying that youd have gotten the same impression if someone hardplayed you as you would being berated? cmon....

your actually showing more respect by playing him hard.
and if he cant handle it, he wont be there long anyway so you may as well get his chips while you can.

if you let too many of these bets go by, you become the maitre' d of the table while everyone else is collecting more bets from him. and if his chips get into a tougher players hands, it is that much harder to get them. the edge, even in great games, is too small to just let it slide. because it makes up for when the game gets tougher.

you can play someone hard and still make them feel welcome. ive talked to many people while i play them hard. that and the fact that they see you playing everyone hard means your not giving an inch to anyone, thus satisfies their need to fit in with the others to a degree.

b

[brad]

you should tell them that once they say 'just you and me?' then that obligates them to bet or raise.