JJ on the bubble

[Gavagai]

What do you make of this hand? (think it was $11 buy in)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t6015)
Button (t340)
SB (t950)
BB (t6195)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t450</font>, Button calls t340 (All-In), <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t300.

Flop: (t1315) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t500</font>, BB calls t500.

Turn: (t2315) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t1200</font>, BB calls t1200.

River: (t4715) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t4045 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t3865 (All-In).

Final Pot: t12625

Thanks,

Gavagai

[syphlix]

mmm... truthfully i think i would fold that...

i could easily see some guy w/ AQ or even KQ sometimes just calling w/ his "super overcards"... when that Q comes and you've got an overcard... and he comes alive and goes all in knowing that he's going up against an equal stack... what makes you think you're good?... if you fold you've still got 4k left and a great chance of winning it...

anyone think my reasoning is bad?

[GtrHtr]

I am curious to see what the BB had in his hand, but short of a BB special (2 pair or a longshot straight draw) I can't see why he called your bet on the turn with anything other than TP on the flop.

Then he comes alive on the river. I'd fold but I think there is a good chance he is buying the pot.

[swarm]

First off from UTG with JJ i'm raising to 1000 minimum and sending a clear message to the BB (fellow big stack) to get out of my way or its going to cost him.

You don't want to be in pots with the other big stack at this point, you want to steer clear of each other. Only raising to 450 makes it to tempting for him to call 300 to see a flop for a 1300 pot.

With the line you took in just raising 3XBB if the flop comes ragged you want to end the party now. He checked, you bet barely over a third of the pot and look weak as hell doing so. Don't do that! Take it down now. Bet 1400 and end this hand right here and there. If he calls a 1400 dollar bet then you best rethink, but I'm sure he would have folded.

On the river so many things have you beat that you have to fold...

i'm guessing q9 or some a 9 of diamonds.

[1C5]

This same exact [censored] happened to me yesterday (same chip counts and everything) except I had QQ and the guy ended up making his A high flush to knock me out. Needless to say I am going to be more careful and not get in a dog fight with the big stack when there are 2 little stacks ready to bust out.

Lesson learned, wait until you get in the money before risking your stack on a good but no great hand against the other big stack.

[willie]

i think i make it 600 preflop

and push the flop to avoid a situation like this....

although he may have hit his set in which case it'd be a mistake. i don't think that betting 500 on the flop is that good of a play. I jam the pot and hope he drops.

[Gavagai]

Yeah I did play the hand horribly didn't I. Should have certainly bet alot more on the flop, the turn, and folded the river. I was still in with a great chance if I had done so, particularly since I tend to do well heads up. I got lucky this time though, the guy had AT. Just found this hand history from a while ago so it's possible I had some vague idea of a read or something, but even so I think the fold was correct.

Thanks,

Gavagai

[SNOWBALL138]

The idea of making small bets like you did is so:

1. You don't get trapped by a set

2. Your bluffs become less expensive b/c they look the same as your value bets

3. You tend to get called by worse hands, viz., you get your good hands paid off.

4. When you get raised big, you are not pot-committed, and can fold.

If you are going to be making small bets like that, what you are doing is offering your opponent disadvantageous, but NOT suicidal pot odds to call, however, when you pay him off when he makes his hand, it makes it so he was correct to call in the first place. Your opponent was able to overcome disadvantageous pot odds by relying on the implied odds for when he hit his hand.

If you are going to get your chips in, get them in earlier, before your opponent outdraws you. If you don't want to put your chips in early, why put them in on the river?

[swarm]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of making small bets like you did is so:

1. You don't get trapped by a set

2. Your bluffs become less expensive b/c they look the same as your value bets

3. You tend to get called by worse hands, viz., you get your good hands paid off.

4. When you get raised big, you are not pot-committed, and can fold.

If you are going to be making small bets like that, what you are doing is offering your opponent disadvantageous, but NOT suicidal pot odds to call, however, when you pay him off when he makes his hand, it makes it so he was correct to call in the first place. Your opponent was able to overcome disadvantageous pot odds by relying on the implied odds for when he hit his hand.

If you are going to get your chips in, get them in earlier, before your opponent outdraws you. If you don't want to put your chips in early, why put them in on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]


Couldn't be said better. We've all been guilty of this and have gotten caught. Either we get greedy or overly cautious when up against another big stack.

The reason it is so dangerous is other big stacks will make what seems like ludicrous calls without the proper pot odds becuase they are "chip drunk".

I really think overtrapping as a big stack is a big leak as to often you end up trapping yourself. In fact I don't even slow play my big hands as a big stack anyways as everyone thinks you are bullying.

[callmedonnie]

I probably fold here. But I also bet harder preflop and after the flop to avoid this situation. If he comes back over, I'd likely let it go. You have plenty of chips, and should be guarenteed second and you can always work him heads up. If he's bluffing (it happens) he's an absolute moron, imho.

[jcm4ccc]

I like the preflop raise. You have a premium hand 4-handed. You want a caller, or you want the SB to come over the top of you. You don't just want to win the blinds with this hand.

But on the flop, you have to take this hand. You don't want to slowplay a pair of jacks. You don't want to give the big stack the correct odds to call you. Bet at least 1000 on the flop. If he calls you, put him all-in when the 2 hits on the turn. In the unlikely event that he's slowplaying a monster, you're still in the money.

But, given the way you played it, you need to fold the river.