another pf question.

[TStoneMBD]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $4. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.83 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.83 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8.83 BB


obviously the hand is standard postflop, but what about preflop? i was told in the midhighstakes forum that when a CO poster checks you can open raise with just about any 2 cards. i have 2 posters here, if that changes anything.

[chief444]

I like it. I can't imagine folding a suited connector on the button against four random hands and raising makes sense opposed to calling for obvious reasons.

I would feel much more comfortable with the decision to raise with a couple of cards higher than a 5 but I still raise it.

[Evan]

I wrote a whole post about why I didn't really like this, then I decided that my reasoning was sort of weak. I'm still not totally crazy about it, but I really can't make a case for it to be awful either. I would like to know something about the players before I did it. I'm not too exited about it agaisnt unknowns.

[einbert]

I agree with Evan that it really helps to know who these players are. But in this case I think it is most likely a good play. If you know that you're just going to build a huge pot (ie all the blinds are going to call) I would just limp here, but I'd raise with higher quality hands (T9s and such).

[TStoneMBD]

to make a note, i raise LP limper(s) with 9Ts habitually.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

to make a note, i raise LP limper(s) with 9Ts habitually.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do too, but T9s is a significanty different hand than 54s.

[ErrantNight]

since you were going to hit the nuts on the turn i think it was silly to not let as many people come along as humanly possible. in fact, you should have completed FOR the sb, instead of raising him out.

well played after. i like how the nut straight makes a rainbow.


(but seriously... i'm not wild about the preflop bet, but i think it was fine here...... ni han)

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
to make a note, i raise LP limper(s) with 9Ts habitually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, I'm just saying that if you're getting called here quite often limping seems slightly more EV to me. 54s is a 3-2 dog to a random hand, while T9s is an 11-9 favorite. So I don't think you have an equity edge with 54s (which I estimate you need for this play to be profitable if you are frequently getting 2-3 callers) while you do have one with T9s.

[Evan]

I'm sure you know this, but hot and cold equity isn't particularly relevant here. Momentum and position are.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you know this, but hot and cold equity isn't particularly relevant here. Momentum and position are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's not the end-all be-all, but I think it does have some relevance in the case where you are frequently getting called by two or more people. At that point your chance of taking it down with a flop bet is reduced significantly, so you're going to have to have the best hand a lot of the time to win.

I value momentum a ton in HU situations, but it doesn't seem quite as important to me in 3- and 4-way pots. Perhaps I'm undervaluing it in this situation?

[TStoneMBD]

ive never heard anybody say it like that before. i like how you put it.

ive mentioned in another post that ive dimmed down on raising players with random aces. instead im raising them with decent suited hands. ill limp behind players with suited aces. the reason for this is that when an ace falls, the pfr receives no action. if you limp in with aces everyone pays you off with the most ridiculous things when an ace flops because they think youre bluffing. if you raise fields with nice suited cards, they chase you down on coordinated boards, but fold when there is an ace on board.

its a beautiful thing me thinks.

[Evan]

Great post. I really like a lot of the stuff you've been writing. I'm glad you're hanging out in SS for now.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
ill limp behind players with suited aces. the reason for this is that when an ace falls, the pfr receives no action. if you limp in with aces everyone pays you off with the most ridiculous things when an ace flops because they think youre bluffing. if you raise fields with nice suited cards, they chase you down on coordinated boards, but fold when there is an ace on board.

its a beautiful thing me thinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great observation and adjustment.

[kurosh]

Are you serious? PF is horrible unless you have a read on all of them being very tight. This isn't NL.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
obviously the hand is standard postflop, but what about preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

then you probably shouldnt have shown the postflop action. people see the straight and think "yeah this isnt so bad". skews responses. im impartial about the raise btw.

[sthief09]

easy

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? PF is horrible unless you have a read on all of them being very tight. This isn't NL.

[/ QUOTE ]


joke?

[kurosh]

No? How the hell is this an easy raise? Again, this would only be a good play against very tight blinds and posters.

[chief444]

Yeah. I agree. I think against unknowns it's pretty likely this will result is a couple of calls or more. But I can still see the advantage of raising and can't really come up with any strong arguments against it.

[kurosh]

Arguments against raising:

With TWO posters, the BB and posters are getting immediate odds of 5.33:1. It's an easy call for them with anything but complete trash like 74o.

You're putting in 1BB PF with an EXTREMELY weak hand. I think you guys are overvaluing it being suited and connected. It's [censored] 45.

The chances of you taking this pot down postflop without a showdown are slim. The chances of you having the best hand are slim. With two posters, this is an easy fold PF.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $4. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.83 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.83 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8.83 BB


obviously the hand is standard postflop, but what about preflop? i was told in the midhighstakes forum that when a CO poster checks you can open raise with just about any 2 cards. i have 2 posters here, if that changes anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it does. With one poster, you may be able to fold out the field. With 2, they are gonna have odds to see the flop. And you have 5-high.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
No? How the hell is this an easy raise? Again, this would only be a good play against very tight blinds and posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is an easy raise, but it is far from horrible. You have position and sooooted connectors. But at the same time, it is only 5 high.

[chief444]

I think folding this preflop is ridiculous. You're against 4 random hands with position. It's [censored] 45s. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Seriously. It's a call or raise for me.

I don't mind one bit folding out 74o BTW. Not one bit.

[sfer]

It's fine.

[TStoneMBD]

youre used to 15/30, its clear you havent played 3/6. not that im disagreeing with you, but your arguements are invalid.

if youve looked at my stats, i have a 40% W$SF. taking down pots after a pfr is nothing tricky.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
No? How the hell is this an easy raise? Again, this would only be a good play against very tight blinds and posters.

[/ QUOTE ]


false

[Entity]

I like it.

[DMBFan23]

FWIW, I probably don't even fold if they VP$IP. since they are posters, 54s is a sweeeeeet hand. I probably would not typically raise, but looking at this I like it.