Weak Hand Questionable Outs

[naphand]

Despite being on a stinkng run I am trying to avoid the temptation to fold marginal hands and keep my post-flop game together. This hand is a bit messy and questionable on all streets IMO. I hope you guys find sufficient interest here for comment.

TABLE CONDITIONS: I am running bad and probably look stupid-aggro (raises a lot, keeps losing at SD). SB and BB are both calling stations, they see 50-60% of flops with average aggression PF and will call down any bit of the board. MP is new but looks a touch loose and passive. CO is another calling station who has just joined the table and posted a blind.


PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Naphand is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO (poster) checks, Naphand calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, CO folds, Naphand calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Naphand calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, MP calls, Naphand calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Naphand checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, Naphand calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB


PF I think I can limp in here, weak hand but I have the Button and these players will not fold (to a PF raise or when I have them beat post-flop). When SB raises I have to put him on something reasonably decent, big A or PP.

Flop. I have second pair, the big problem is the two suits which taint my outs. When SB does not bet it sure looks like he hates that Ace, when limper bets I put him on a weak Ace (he limped PF) or flush draw. If that is the case then I have enough outs to call, but the 2 suits plus the SB PF raise makes this very marginal. When SB raises I am thinking big A or AA, too soon to put him on AA (the CR was unusual for him, though). Clearly, having made the original call the second call is mandatory (only 3 outs needed now).

Turn. SB checks again. Now I really do not know what the hell he has, but as a calling station he will always be afraid of any hand that might exist somewhere in the universe to beat him, though checking AA still looks impossible, even for him. My check behind looks really bad; MP/BB definitely do not have the flush which leaves SB. A CR from SB would almost certainly mean flush or trip AAA but I would call again getting 16.5:1 (possibly drawing dead to a FH against AAA). Ummmm...

River and SB bets out which, because of my Turn weakness, means nothing more than his flop hand. I call even though it seems obvious no-one has the flush. Looking at this now, I only have to worry about SB as it is clear the rest are beat. But in games like this I have seen trips getting check/called down when the 3rd-suit hits.

Bet the Turn? I think this should be a yes, anyone disagree?

Raise the River (given the Turn check-fest)?

[Mr. Graff]

I think definitely bet the turn. Charge the fish for those 2h, 3h and 4h that they are hoping to take down the pot with /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Most passives will bet an ace two pair here if they have lead the flop so you are probably up against AK or AQ.

[Huhmare]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the Turn? I think this should be a yes, anyone disagree?

Raise the River (given the Turn check-fest)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. Bet the turn. If I misclicked and checked the turn, I'd raise the river.

[helpmeout]

T9o on the button with limpers fold this trash. Only people with very good postflop skills should be playing this.

Fold on the flop you have a crap 1 pair with 4.5 outs with potential redraws against you if you improve (possible flush on the river or paired 6s makes your hand worthless, T9 could also give an 87 straight), you arent even closing the action so SB could easily checkraise as he does.

I dont know what you are smoking on the turn but you have to bet this. Hey anyone with a heart or an 8/7 here is a free river to beat my 2 pair.

[naphand]

The more I look at this hand the more I ask myself what I was thinking (at the time), or as you put it "what was I smoking?". The turn bet is incredibly obvious, even if I was involved in another hand and mis-read it I had chance to make amends on the River and did not take it... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

At the moment there are 1 or 2 hands like this per 1,000 played and I suspect the appearance of quite a few missed bets/loose calls is down to getting used to 3-tabling. At 110-120 hands/hr on Stars/UB 3-tabling gives more games/hr than 4-tabling Party (80 hands/hr/table average I am told). There were sufficient questions about this hand to make it worth posting, even the fact I played it at all, of course, plus the flop. In the end I seriously mis-played it and missed quite a few BB.

MP showed A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB showed A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB showed J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
MHIG

A bet on the Turn would certainly have been called by all given their habits and their hands. I would even have been surprised if even SB had folded his JJ, though I am surprised at his CR on this flop. Mad.

T9o OTB is showing a decent profit for me, even over the abysmally bad last 10K hands. Previously I would auto-muck this multi-way but I have been playing T9o for a limp OTB. I do not find playing it after the flop difficult, it is not really any more difficult than a medium PP in the same spot and playing 1 or 2 extra marginal hands to develop your post-flop game is not costing much BB at worst, but does give you plenty of scope to improve. Loosely playing any number of hands from various positions is going to hit your game, but one hand from one position is not. I can play JTo profitably from here, so introducing the "next" hand as a way to increase V$IP and develop a bigger post-flop game, seems reasonable to me. I am still learning. There is no better place to experiment than OTB. I agree about the multi-way issue, but again I see no harm in a limp here, I would limp JTo as well, and raise both 1st-in (less likely with some games/opponents).