Genius or Retard?

[Huhmare]

In order to be deceptive Hero has to occasionally raise some hands, hed otherwise muck. Just to make it hard for your opponents to read your hand. I find this especially important in 6max.

Absolute Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain calls.

River: (5.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain folds.

Final Pot: 6.66 BB

I caught a decent hand on the flop and just kept battering away hoping to hit my str8. I didn't make it but I caught two scarecards.

[naphand]

There is approximately zero requirement for deception at this limit. I think even the $10/$20 players rarely make these kinds of moves for "deception". The point of raising hands like this is to show them down, so you get more calls on your better hands. As you failed to showdown, your image is unchanged and your deception undetected. It's fine that you took the chance to steal this hand using the scare cards, but none of your other objectives was achieved. Of course it looks really clever when you can make a post like this but, I have to say I chuckled when you said decpetion is "especially important" at 6-max, I suggest you work a little more on your table selection if that is the case.

At $3/$6 there are enough chooks to make loose raises like this UTG completely un-necessary, there are also enough aggressive players to make you pay when you do. Deception is important against tough players, rarely found at these limits. If you are sitting at a "tough" $3/$6 game, then get up and go elsewhere; I have seen players sitting in 6-max tables with a seeing flop of 26% when other tables are open with 50-60%. Why bother?

[Huhmare]

[ QUOTE ]
There is approximately zero requirement for deception at this limit. I think even the $10/$20 players rarely make these kinds of moves for "deception". The point of raising hands like this is to show them down, so you get more calls on your better hands. As you failed to showdown, your image is unchanged and your deception undetected. It's fine that you took the chance to steal this hand using the scare cards, but none of your other objectives was achieved. Of course it looks really clever when you can make a post like this but, I have to say I chuckled when you said decpetion is "especially important" at 6-max, I suggest you work a little more on your table selection if that is the case.

At $3/$6 there are enough chooks to make loose raises like this UTG completely un-necessary, there are also enough aggressive players to make you pay when you do. Deception is important against tough players, rarely found at these limits. If you are sitting at a "tough" $3/$6 game, then get up and go elsewhere; I have seen players sitting in 6-max tables with a seeing flop of 26% when other tables are open with 50-60%. Why bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

As you see this was in absolute. I would never play there, if I wasn't clearing a bonus. There is not many total fishies around and basically all the tables are quite tight. I was able to steal consistently in a 1/2 game, so you can then think how tight this game was.

If you are saying that one can be a winning player in a 6max with ABC poker, your going to have to prove it. Good table selection helps of course. And yes 1/2 is very beatable even with ABC if you have a good table selection. But that was not an option here.

[J.R.]

I'd play it the same but only play it fairly infrequently.

[naphand]

You have not been long on this forum have you?

Go read the numerous posts in the archives about how to beat $5/$10 playing ABC while 4-tabling.

I have played at Absolute, and the $3/$6 games were full of idiots, LAGs and calling stations. In short, they were really no different to the $3/$6 games I see elsewhere. If you think these games are tough, then you are probably not the player you think you are. Most poker writers also say that deception really is not necessary until you get to mid-limits, where the games actually start to have reasonable players in them. That said, there is no shortage of results-oriented players who think their FPS style is genius and convince themselves they are winning more by playing trashy hands like this and slow playing their big hands. This kind of play is not necessary to beat $3/$6 at a very healthy clip, but it is fun when it pays off and if your post-flop skills are good enough then throwing in hands like this every now and then is good to relieve the boredom. I cannot imagine there are many players who can show a decent profit playing 97s UTG, and I doubt it has much effect on your overall image except in highly specific situations.

[NLSoldier]

*yawn*

[Huhmare]

[ QUOTE ]
You have not been long on this forum have you?

Go read the numerous posts in the archives about how to beat $5/$10 playing ABC while 4-tabling.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Found it today.

Still it doesn't mean I didn't know how to play 6max. I think this play is approximately 0 EV (not genius). I have the position and I'm against overcards propably. I'll be able to steal the pot very often after the flop. I know this because I was able to take down massive amounts of pots when I made a preflop raise with something like AJs for example and the flop came Q 7 5. Just autobet and see the opponent fold 2/3 of the time. I think you need to understand that this really was NOT a loose game. It was WEAK TIGHT. You are just going to have to trust me. There were no LOOSE games at the time.

[J.R.]

I think his issue is preflop, as that is where the true deception lies. I don't believe he objects to the postflop semi-buffing and bluffing, I hope.

If you opponents are as weak tight as you describe, you aren't raising for deception, cause you don't plan on showing down. You're rasing to steal. Not that either is a bad goal.

[naphand]

God no, as I said in my reply.

[Huhmare]

[ QUOTE ]
I think his issue is preflop, as that is where the true deception lies. I don't believe he objects to the postflop semi-buffing and bluffing, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I would have taken the free river, but the K did fall and I saw an opportunity for a steal. Taking the free river might have been a better play tho, but I was hoping him to have something else than Q. And the river was an easy decision. Villain could not possibly call with something like QJ.

[naphand]

OK, then I will indeed just have to trust your take on the game. If the game was as weak-tight as you say, raising these hands PF makes a lot more sense. I doubt I go as low as 97s but it would have to be a consideration as it obviously belongs to a bunch of hands that can win their fair share (or just over) of pots. The $3/$6 games I see on other sites usually have some calling station who just will not fold, even Q-high sometimes (EDIT: and certainly with QJ in exactly these kind of pots), or 1 or 2 LAGs who simply will not let you get away with stealing too many pots, so I prefer to have position on them for this play.

Is the bonus really worth it? I guess if you can run over tables like this then it must be. When I played Absolute $3/$6 they seemed permanently populated by idiots and LAGs, which made for some crazy beats and very few steals post-flop and it was a coin flip to determine if you lost the entire bonus or made a ton. I also found only 1 or 2 tables open, whihc tended to quickly break up. How many $3/46 tables are you typically seeing now?

[Huhmare]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the bonus really worth it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It definately is. $15/h add to my BB/100 is quite nice.


[ QUOTE ]
I guess if you can run over tables like this then it must be. When I played Absolute $3/$6 they seemed permanently populated by idiots and LAGs, which made for some crazy beats and very few steals post-flop and it was a coin flip to determine if you lost the entire bonus or made a ton. I also found only 1 or 2 tables open, whihc tended to quickly break up. How many $3/46 tables are you typically seeing now?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is 4 tables open right now, but later in the day there will be more traffic. I haven't seen many LAG's there during those 6k hands I've played there.

This one guy at 3/6 is horrible. Just having him around is +1BB/100. It's just a guess, but he makes some horrible plays. Yesterday I took a nice pot against him with AK when he was trying to steal out of position with K3s. I just called him down, because I knew he was very capable of doing this. I don't raise anything like 79s against this guy, because I know I can't get him to fold. And if these tables were full of these players, I could see my BB/100 being higher. And ABC poker would work.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
There is approximately zero requirement for deception at this limit. I think even the $10/$20 players rarely make these kinds of moves for "deception".

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, this is true. Specially since people started to use playerview and Gametime+, all the good players have stats on you making it hard to fool them and the bad players dont think about it.

U say u sit in a weaktight game and do a lot of stealing. Good, but why do u then want them to see u raise with a bad hand (if u think a 97s raise from CO is bad, I think its marginal but ok if others are weak)? You want them to fold, not start to call u down?

Against weaktight players u want a tight image, making them play even tighter against you.

Not being deceptive got very little to do with playing ABC-poker. ABC-poker for a skilled player involves a lot of bluffing and semibluffing, positional raises and so on. But every time u do this u do it for a purpose in the hand u are now playing, not because of some metaconsiderations where u want to be "deceptive". If u play good ABC u will be deceptive without having to do something other then the normal.