slowdown??

[mr magoo]

When should I start to slowdown this hand? I dont have any reads on villian.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ??

[Niediam]

Fold preflop and I'd keep my foot down for a little bit longer...

[bakku]

i'd cap. if he bets the river just call.

[PokerSparky]

I'd cap the turn and call a river bet. Then I'd call myself a "freakin' donk" when he shows me 66, 88, or AA.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop ...

[/ QUOTE ]

folding preflop is missing out on money.

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop ...

[/ QUOTE ]

folding preflop is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop....

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. This is a major leak.

[oreogod]

Lol, how can u fold this preflop? Hell if it comes back at u raised, with 99 u can reraise it (unless the table is one of tightness)..capped, I would not cap it, calling it capped if its two bets back to u Im a litte wary but call.

To the OP question...NO. Do not slow down. If people are in on flush draws make them pay for it...seriously this much action the last thing u want to do is slowdown. I think u are ahead here. Only hand u need to worry about is QQ or JT, the latter I dont see in this hand.

I say cap the turn, call the river? (weak maybe) Depends on the river.

[mr magoo]

I capped, on the river another spade fell, he checked and I bet again. Correct play?? he called and showed 7Ts... for a straight.

[oreogod]

WOW. What the hell is 7Ts doing in that hand? This is how u make money at these tables. Sorry to hear that though.

Guy called 2.5 bets cold with 7Ts -- they love their suited hands. Damn.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

I capped, on the river another spade fell, he checked and I bet again. Correct play??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
When should I start to slowdown this hand? I dont have any reads on villian.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Cap the turn. If he leads the river, just call. I'm not sure what SB would play this way. If he has QQ, he should have capped pre-flop. If he has JT, he should have folded. Odd.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
meh

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I capped, on the river another spade fell, he checked and I bet again. he called and showed 7Ts... for a straight. Correct play??

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends....If you put him on your buddy list, then the answer is "yes".

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

To the OP question...NO. Do not slow down. If people are in on flush draws make them pay for it...

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, yes. When you get to the turn, this has no relevance.

[Niediam]

I said fold preflop because that is what SSH says. Is there a typo in SSH that I don't know about? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Is Ed just wrong?

You guys reraising with 88 in the same situation here?

[gvibes]

[ QUOTE ]
I said fold preflop because that is what SSH says. Is there a typo in SSH that I don't know about? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Is Ed just wrong?

You guys reraising with 88 in the same situation here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The typical advice in this forum is a little bit looser and more aggressive than that advocated by Miller in SSH.

I don't know what I do with 88.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I said fold preflop because that is what SSH says. Is there a typo in SSH that I don't know about? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Is Ed just wrong?

You guys reraising with 88 in the same situation here?

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE does not say fold 99 preflop, the only way it happens at a loose table is if it comes to u capped or if u raise and it comes back capped (meaning two bets to call) -- u can fold. 99 u should raise or reraise with. If its raised and four people call two cold then just call.

[Niediam]

It clearly says to fold. P. 80

[TheDelChop]

The 3-bet only works if you think you can isolate the raiser.

With the SB limping in and then just calling the 3-bet, always be cautious of total donk hands. If it was the PF raiser that was going crazy on the turn I'd be more happy with the cap on the turn. Im not folding on the river, but im not capping the turn either.

[oreogod]

It depends on table situation. Is this a tight table, loose table? No reads on villian I can see why ud go for the tight table chart. But party 2/4 with good table selection you are using at least half and half leering more towards the loose table chart.

If u have no reads on table or villian sure its okay to rely on the tight table chart...but like I said it depends.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I said fold preflop because that is what SSH says. Is there a typo in SSH that I don't know about? Is Ed just wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not black/white. It depends on the table and Hero.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys reraising with 88 in the same situation here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on villian. There are some villians for which it's correct to fold 99 preflop (those that only raise say QQ/KK/AA) and there are others that I will 3-bet with, say, 77.

Learning to recognize these situations will increase your winrate.

[oreogod]

What he said.

You want to get to a point where a chart no longer matters...u just know what hands are good against who and if its a situation in which they will be profitable in the long run.

[Niediam]

Of course. Every intermediate level poker player gets that.

What I am asking is why everybody is saying why everybody has apparently made the *default* play be raise when SSH says it should be fold.

[oreogod]

99 folding preflop here, not so good. What could have happened is 99 just calls instead of 3 bets. Then we are still in the realm of SSHE. But heres the thing, its not re-raised back to the hero (just raised), its the hero doing the 3 bet -- to me this seems like an isolation play. I think it works, u try and isolate it to get a decent sized pot heads up. If they call, u put the pressure on your opponents to hit their cards or hope they hit a flop (especially if the have over cards -AK-AJ, KQ, etc.)

I think isolation play is a good line for this hand. He hit the flop for a set, u cant really ask for more here. To me this seems almost the standard, TAG expert-ish play preflop.

EDIT: SBs call was horrible. If SB had a fold button, or knew how to fold, this play would have worked like a beauty. Its the whole reason u isolate, 7Ts should not have made it to the flop the way preflop went.

Now do u see why?

[Niediam]

You are not answering the question though... which is why does Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth say to do otherwise? That's all I'm asking. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HajiShirazu]

Against a fairly aggressive range:
Hand 1: 53.7070 % [ 00.53 00.01 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 46.2930 % [ 00.46 00.01 ] { 99 }

Or, for a more standard party 2/4 raiser:

Hand 1: 58.0424 % [ 00.58 00.00 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs, AKo-AJo }
Hand 2: 41.9576 % [ 00.42 00.00 ] { 99 }

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a fairly aggressive range:
Hand 1: 53.7070 % [ 00.53 00.01 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, QJs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 46.2930 % [ 00.46 00.01 ] { 99 }

Or, for a more standard party 2/4 raiser:

Hand 1: 58.0424 % [ 00.58 00.00 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs, AKo-AJo }
Hand 2: 41.9576 % [ 00.42 00.00 ] { 99 }

[/ QUOTE ]



IRRELEVANT....there's a 3rd person already in this pot.


Further, Pokerstove is somewhat irrelevant in these situations as even though equity may be nearly equal.... villains can still fold when behind, but continue to call when not (for example).



Adam

[adamstewart]

FWIW,


I hear a number of posters advocating *not* folding this preflop - like that's the obvious answer. I don't think it's that clearcut, though.

The only reason I'm *may* *not* fold this preflop, is because of the presence of the UTG limper.

Otherwise, I'm certainly folding 99 to an EP raiser, with no one else in the pot. (Firstly, against most EP raisers, you're only ahead by a coinflip OR you're WAY behind. Second, you're nowhere near closing the action).

If I'm playing this hand preflop, I'm simply calling..... thinking that 2/4 players are generally loose and I will hopefully get at least one more cold-caller in this pot behind me, giving me the odds to try to flop a set. Other than that, we can only hope for a flop with all undercards.

IMO, 3-betting is the worst play here, as I don't think it will push UTG out. And with at least two opponents... you're VERY susceptible to A LOT of overcards (and remember these are early postion opponents.... i.e. more likely to have overcards).


Adam

[oreogod]

Im looking at the TIGHT table chart and its going by what u say. This forum advocates a slightly more aggressive style then the book. I have to look the book over, but there has to be a similar situation in there in which it is better to try and isolate instead of call/fold (?? not sure on that) --

You cant always go by the book, I think u have to build your foundation with them and move on. I think the reason many ppl agree with this is u have an opportunity to take this heads up against another player.

I like the play,even though it is a little crazy-ish (very loosely, I think its awesome)

Maybe someone who has recently read the book can fill u in. Hell I wish ed himself would step in, give a look.

(Give me time to think on this, I havent slept much the last two days, I will come back, see if I can spit something out. Ive been reading about poker pretty non-stop, I think I reached overload point. That and I just got my cat fixed, yeah that was fun)

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW,


I hear a number of posters advocating *not* folding this preflop - like that's the obvious answer. I don't think it's that clearcut, though.

The only reason I'm *may* *not* fold this preflop, is because of the presence of the UTG limper.

Otherwise, I'm certainly folding 99 to an EP raiser, with no one else in the pot. (Firstly, against most EP raisers, you're only ahead by a coinflip OR you're WAY behind. Second, you're nowhere near closing the action).

If I'm playing this hand preflop, I'm simply calling..... thinking that 2/4 players are generally loose and I will hopefully get at least one more cold-caller in this pot behind me, giving me the odds to try to flop a set. Other than that, we can only hope for a flop with all undercards.

IMO, 3-betting is the worst play here, as I don't think it will push UTG out. And with at least two opponents... you're VERY susceptible to A LOT of overcards (and remember these are early postion opponents.... i.e. more likely to have overcards).


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably one of the best responses. Didnt see it was MP1 for the hand, what do u think if 3 betting in late position if its folded to u? Same line? You're susptible to overcards, but what if u could get it heads up with early raiser with position? still bad? I can definitly see why.

I think I still have a weak spot for the isolation move in late position.

See, reading to much poker, too tired Im missing out on little details. I have to come back and hit the boards with a fresh mind tommorow.

[W. Deranged]

What are people's feelings about cold-calling here? I know almost everyone here hates cold-calling, and I do too, but the few hands I really like it with are 77-99... The pre-flop limper suggests the pot will be four-handed... A cold-call likely induces more players. If you get a caller behind, great, your odds are looking good. If you don't you have position and a hand that has some chance of holding up unimproved. It just seems like one of the rare situations where it's right to cold-call.

I agree that three-betting is really not good here. You are not as likely to push out UTG (or even the BB) at 2/4 as you might be at higher limits... I'd rather try to get the pot up to 5-handed then keep it down to 2-handed... (Not to mention the fact that getting capped sucks).