Pumping draws in stud?

[vulturesrow]

So my primary is game hold'em so I understand pumping with a good draw for value. How does this apply in stud or does it?Should I betting live 4 flushes and OESDs?

[TheShootah]

I think a hand like (A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif) 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif is a very slight favorite over weaker hands on 4th. Like 53% to hit or something like that. I dunno about redraws if the guy has two pair or OESD's though. I tend to fold 3 straights on 4th most of the time. I just sucked in.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Andy B]

It depends on how live your hand is, and what you think you're up against. If you have a flush draw with only a couple of your cards out, it is worth raising for value in a multi-way pot as long as no one has a paired door card (and even there, it might still be worth raising). Straight draws are weaker, as they're harder to hit and easier to beat. A lot of three-card straights should be mucked on third street, but if you're open-ended on fourth, it's worth raising with unless you think you're up against a better draw.

[grapes]

It depends.

How many other players are in, how they play, and what your board shows, and your position are the most important factors.

I don't agree with the answer above that "(A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif is a very slight favorite over weaker hands on 4th." A four-flush on 4th, especially headed by an ace, is a big hand - against K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, AT65 of spades is still 56-44. Against AAxx, it's still usually better than 53% heads up depending on the other two cards. Hell, even against rolled up kings you're only a little worse than 2-1. A four-flush on four is slightly under even money to make the flush, but the added potential of backing into another winning hand is not insignificant.

Against multiple opponents, you generally want to get as much money in as possible without knocking anyone out. If there's a bet and three calls on fourth street and you're last to act with 4 spades, obviously raise. If there's a bet and you're next, usually just call.

With specifically the hand mentioned above, I would be more inclined to just call on fourth except in a perfect situation, as calling on third showing a 5 and then raising when you catch a suited ten announces your hand. If you can raise and still get more than a couple callers, go ahead and raise, but realize you're making it easy on your opponents to charge you to draw when the limit doubles when you miss, and get out when you hit.

Against one (and sometimes two) opponents, I like to sometimes just call on fourth with a four-flush, and then bet or raise on 5th if I catch anything except an offsuit baby. If you make the flush on 5, having not raised on fourth will get you paid off more often, as a raise looks much more like a semi-bluff than a made hand.

Straight draws are a little different. They are less obvious than flushes but also much more likely to get beaten. Against probable flush draws and/or paired door cards, even calling is usually wrong. Compared to hold'em, your straights will lose more often, and you'll be less sure where you stand, in general, and you will be check/calling the river with a made straight a lot more often.

Another difference from hold'em is that draws with a pair or other side potential are a lot better. Hands like (67)9T6 that are live can be worth a call, or probably better, a (semi-bluff) raise. With these hands you usually want to get it heads up, even with stronger draws like the four spades above with a pair of sixes on fifth street. Same with 9TJQ or 4 cards to broadway - you generally want to play these aggressively and limit the field.

Another huge difference from hold'em is that your draw changes value based on how live your cards are. In a lot of cases hands that you might have raised for value can become barely worth a call.

On fifth street and later, aggressive plays with unimproved draws purely for value (as your question specified) are rarely correct, as you'd need 3+ callers to make bets/raises with typical draws clearly profitable - but pure value combined with semi-bluff, deceptive, and/or free card potential will often make it right.

How strongly to play draws is largely based on how your opponents play. With a big draw that has little chance to lose if it hits (most flush draws), avoid aggressive action on the small rounds that will tip your hand. Getting callers when you have a made flush on the double-bet rounds earns much more than getting an extra value bet in while you're drawing.

[TheShootah]

Yeah you are right about that flush. I was off by quite a bit. I must have been thinking of something else....*idiot*. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CarlosChadha]

Hi grapes,

Wonderful post, all of your comments are dead on. I have one comment about playing 4 flushes heads up or 3 way on 4th. You said that you like to just call so as to not give away your hand. I agree that this might give away your hand, expecially if you are showing disconnected number cards, but there is a good metagame arguement for raising in this situation: if you "give away" your hand in these situations, it allows you to "give away" your hand in situations where you have a suited card on 4th, but just a pair that you are planning on playing anyway. By raising 4th with your pair you make it very hard for them to call with just 1 pair on 5th (or maybe 6th) if you catch a 3rd suited card, because it seems that you have a flush. Also, when you have a monster on 4th, like 2 pair or trips, and you raise on 4th with a suited card, good opponents will read you for a flush draw and bet into you again on 5th, thus allowing you to raise again and get an extra big bet.

Regards,
Carlos

[BeerMoney]

However, I think I disagree, about NOT raising on your flush draw on fourth. On fourth street is where you know you are going to be a money favorite against the field. The little bit that you give up in deception is made up for by the bets you collect, AND tieing people onto a pot they shouldn't be involved with. If you hit your flush on 5th or 6th, you will have 3 to the flush showing, and your opponents will be likely to check to you. With raising, you may even be fortunate enough to have someone reraise you. Also, if there is a lot of action on third, I would be willing to go ahead and raise regardless of position, because people are so willing to see fifth. As we all know, poker is a game of getting people to make mistakes. With a live 4 flush on fourth, you know you are a money favorite against the field, raise when you KNOW you are ahead, and you KNOW your opponents are going to make a mistake. If you wait until fifth, you give your opponents an opportunity to fold, or maybe no one will bet. You also may lose some opponents on fifth. Raising 4th also may give you a free card if you desire.