5-5 PLHE angle? and what would you do?

[ohkanada]

The final hand of the PL game last night ended with fireworks.

2 of the players from my previous post are involved. Aggressive Tourney (AT) who now has 1.2k. Stuck Player (SP) now is down to 1k.

I missed the pre-flop/flop betting. The flop is KK9. The pot is $70. I believe SP raised to $30 pre-flop and the flop was checked around.

Turn is an 8. SP checks. AT bets $70. SP calls.

River is a 7. SP checks. AT bets $210. SP calls and says he will pay him off.

Now before I tell the rest of the story (to steal a famous line), it is possible the 7 was the turn and the 8 was the river. This actually makes more sense.

I am sitting between these 2 players. I felt that AT was bluffing at a scary board and was trying to get SP to fold.

After the call, AT says straight. SP is waiting to see the cards and just before AT flips over his card, SP mucks his hand. AT flips over T8s for a missed straight. Now we all see he doesn't have a straight and he fairly quickly apologizes and says he mis-read his hand. SP is upset and wants his hand back. AT says he can't retrieve his cards from the muck. When SP mucked the cards definitely got mixed up with the burn cards. SP claims he had AA.

They call the floor over and the floor rules that AT wins the pot. Now things get crazy. Of course SP is very upset claiming an angle. Another player (VU) is very pissed off and feels that AT should split the pot or give back the final bet. AT of course feels he did nothing wrong but was mistaken reading his hand. AT is not willing to give up any of the pot. VU is fuming and can't believe he is not willing to give up some of the pot. An all-out swearing match and name calling happens.

The game quickly breaks down.

Comments? And what would you do if you were AT and was not angle shooting? I can see it from both points of view.

Ken Poklitar

[Lurker]

Cards speak for themselves. Both players made a mistake--player 1's mistake was misreading his hand, and player 2's mistake was believing him! I believe the floorman made the correct decision; once the cards hit the muck the hand is dead.

Now, that said, if I was in that situation and had misread my hand, the ONLY way I would give some money back was if I thought I was the sheriff at the table and the fish would all swim away if I didn't.

So I think the player was justified by the rules of the game in doing what he did, but not necessarily justified by his bankroll if he thought he could give back the river bet and then continue to mop the floor with the opposition.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

My main comment is SP just learned a valuable lesson, and one he hopefully will now never forget.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[TAFKAn]

In every no limit game I've ever played, public and private, the following rule has been rigidly enforced:

If you declare your hand and cause the other player to muck, and then you show a hand WORSE than the hand you declared, you forfeit the pot automatically. This is an excellent rule and should be enforced in all poker games.

The AT player was OBVIOUSLY pulling an angle and the floorman made a terrible decision.

[Lurker]

Sounds like a good rule, but probably not one that was in force at this casino?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

That rule has no correlation with limit and big bet that I'm aware of, i.e., if it's in force it applies to both games equally. And I realize that this rule exists in many clubs, especially in California.

However, that is not the rule at Foxwoods, so the floor did make a correct ruling. For the floor to correctly rule otherwise, the guy who misdeclared would have to confess that he did it intentionally.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Ray Zee]

unfortunately the rules are not standard around the globe. so you must hold your hand in most places to win the pot. even though he may have miss read his hand he still is entitled to see the hand that beat him. its a tough decision.
originally in california they made the rule of having to have at least as good as hand you called or you lose, was in lowball as people would call a better hand than they had and spread their cards face up quickly so that a person not looking carefully might miss a pair. so that was a hard angle to stop so they made that rule. then they had to make a rule that if you spread your hand face up and it had a pair in it you lost if someone folded. but in other games it isnt needed as the penalty for miscalling your hand should not be loss of pot, especially in no limit where giant pots happen and the game is not rushed.

[ohkanada]

You are certainly correct. It does seem to me that if someone is willing to put a few thousand on the table that they should know not to muck until they have seen the hand.

I am sure you would have been quite amused at the whole thing other than it breaking up the game!

Ken Poklitar

I completely agree with TAFKAn. AT was Angle-Shooting for sure. NO WAY to miss read T8 on KK98-7 board. What did he bet with on turn? a misread "T6o" or "JTo"??? give me a break. he knew he had T8. Pot should have been taken away from the cheater.

Kenny