Check Check Bet [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

gaming_mouse

04-04-2005, 11:14 PM

Villain was 10% tight after 80 hands. AF = 5,0,0, but the zeros don't mean much since he gets to the flop so rarely. Anyone fold the river? Do anything else different? May be standard, but just checking....

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

masonx

04-04-2005, 11:27 PM

i like it

PokerBob

04-04-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 10% tight after 80 hands. AF = 5,0,0, but the zeros don't mean much since he gets to the flop so rarely. Anyone fold the river? Do anything else different? May be standard, but just checking....

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the river bet.

pokerkai

04-04-2005, 11:29 PM

Standard IMO...i think without the 2 clubs the flop call turns into a fold

pokerkai

04-04-2005, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 10% tight after 80 hands. AF = 5,0,0, but the zeros don't mean much since he gets to the flop so rarely. Anyone fold the river? Do anything else different? May be standard, but just checking....

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

We dont want KK, QQ, TT, 99, 88 checking through...

EDIT: erm...not 99. also...AK isnt very likely to raise the river.

CallMeIshmael

04-04-2005, 11:30 PM

I like it.

With a better read, I could see bet/folding the river. But, I'm talking a really solid read.

I also agree that without 2 clubs, the flop is a fold.

ewile

04-04-2005, 11:32 PM

I'd probably do it reverse. Bet out the turn, call if raised and check/call the river. (Bet out the river if not raised)
In any event, I'm showing this down.

gaming_mouse

04-04-2005, 11:34 PM

EDIT: erm...not 99. also...AK isnt very likely to raise the river.

99. that's what he had.

PokerBob

04-04-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 10% tight after 80 hands. AF = 5,0,0, but the zeros don't mean much since he gets to the flop so rarely. Anyone fold the river? Do anything else different? May be standard, but just checking....

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

We dont want KK, QQ, TT, 99, 88 checking through...

EDIT: erm...not 99. also...AK isnt very likely to raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see us being ahead here all that often to make this play profitable, unless we can fold to a river raise.

masonx

04-04-2005, 11:43 PM

yeah i kinda think flop is a fold too

CallMeIshmael

04-04-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i kinda think flop is a fold too

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with the backdoor flush draw?

gaming_mouse

04-04-2005, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I just don't see us being ahead here all that often to make this play profitable, unless we can fold to a river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are getting better than 10:1 on the call. So it's fine if we think a worse hand is raising 9% of the time or more. It's pretty close, and can't be that bad.

Not betting out is pretty terrible, IMO. It's between bet/fold and bet/call.

CallMeIshmael

04-04-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's between bet/fold and bet/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

gaming_mouse

04-04-2005, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably do it reverse. Bet out the turn, call if raised and check/call the river. (Bet out the river if not raised)
In any event, I'm showing this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line certainly looks more appealing after seeing the results. But I actually don't think it's worse over all. The river is less likely to be raised by AK, and so the c/c/b line usually saves you a BB. Your line prevents free cards, which is good, but a TAG will usually bet the turn anyway when checked to.

CallMeIshmael

04-04-2005, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This line certainly looks more appealing after seeing the results. But I actually don't think it's worse over all. The river is less likely to be raised by AK, and so the c/c/b line usually saves you a BB. Your line prevents free cards, which is good, but a TAG will usually bet the turn anyway when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

The only decision in this hand, IMO, is either bet/call or bet/fold the river.

The other streets seem pretty automatic.

Someone who plays 10% of his hands isnt taking the free card there very often when he 3-bet preflop.

PokerBob

04-05-2005, 12:02 AM

TheDelChop

04-05-2005, 12:09 AM

I don't see why you don't check raise him on the turn and define your hand. If your calling for your overcards don't be sheepish when you hit them.

Perseus

04-05-2005, 12:13 AM

I agree with this. I would also check-raise the turn...

..Can someone explain to me why they think not check raising the turn would be more +EV

CallMeIshmael

04-05-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why you don't check raise him on the turn and define your hand. If your calling for your overcards don't be sheepish when you hit them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because TT, QQ, KK is far more likely to fold to your checkraise than when you bet the river.

tytygoodnuts

04-05-2005, 12:15 AM

This hand kind of brings up a trend I have observed at party 2/4. I run into a lot of very tight players, but I often see them making some really dumb plays on all streets. Does anyone else notice this?

I would definitely bet the turn. Don't give no damn free cards!!!

tytygoodnuts

04-05-2005, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. I would also check-raise the turn...

..Can someone explain to me why they think not check raising the turn would be more +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

I will take a shot at this.
1. The dude might take a free card.
2. Check-raising the turn is going to leave you open to an expensive three bet when you are behind.

Because betting out will protect your hand when you are ahead makes it a better play than the check-raise.

DMBFan23

04-05-2005, 12:21 AM

two of the beautiful things about this line IMO are that a better ace will rarely raise the river, and KK/QQ/TT will rarely fold. I think if you went into it knowing you'd call the raise 100%, it would be +EV without a read, that's how rarely the river gets raised versus how much it gets called IMO. if you are against rocky mcrock, then you can fold to the raise, but I've never had a good enough read to do that.

PokerBob

04-05-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. I would also check-raise the turn...

..Can someone explain to me why they think not check raising the turn would be more +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

What if you are 3-bet? It probably means that you are behind, but you could also be up against AQ.

CallMeIshmael

04-05-2005, 12:31 AM

I don't see how the most interesting part of the hand (the river decision) is being glossed over while the standard turn is being debated...

OK.. this guy raises 10% of his hands... That probably puts his 3-betting range at something like AA-99, and AK.

So, lets look at how many bets go in, if we bet:

Hand....Villian action....Number of bets

99......Call..............1
TT......Call..............1
JJ.......Raise............2
QQ......Call..............1
KK......Call..............1
AA......Raise............2

AK......Raise(prob).......2

Hm... yes... hero gets 2 bets in whenever he is behind, and 1 when he is ahead... sounds like a great line!

If hero checks... villian is NOT taking a free card.. he BET with 99... villian will bet with a worse hand here. Dont worry about "giving" a free card. Have no fears, a bet will go in.

PokerBob

04-05-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
KK/QQ/TT will rarely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT hits the much for sure with 2 overs out there. I think I fold KK and QQ, so I assume everyone else does. Maybe that is weak tight, but I think it's what I'd do.

CallMeIshmael

04-05-2005, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold KK and QQ, so I assume everyone else does.

[/ QUOTE ]

They dont.

oreogod

04-05-2005, 03:09 AM

Okay I put him on 99-QQ, lower for some reason, most likely his river action gave me 99. Throughout the hand, I put him on a pair that didnt touch the flop or turn (I dont think he has jacks). Pop up the turn. He bets/raises I say re-raise. I firmly believe especially with the A helping u, u are ahead. He might even fold beliving his low pair is beat.

If he had 99 he sucked out with a set. Pop the turn, maybe ppl will disagree, but Im going with a read that u are ahead. And yes, fold to a bet on the flop without the backdoor flush out there.

EDIT: Just saw results. Haha, he did have 99. Pop the turn, he might have folded.

oreogod

04-05-2005, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I fold KK and QQ, so I assume everyone else does. Maybe that is weak tight, but I think it's what I'd do.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can u fold KK or QQ here? His turn action even though its just a bet doesnt indicate that u are beaten. To me this seems like a typical play that lower pairs will take (88-JJ) -- keep betting through, "dont want to give free cards, just grab your balls and take the plunge."

I think its completely possible if u pop the turn he could fold, most likely he calls and checks to u on the river if he doesnt improve to a set. Here he did improve, but no where before the river can u fold KK or QQ.

Am I right?

That is weak tight, way to weak. No to rag u, but u are the KQ guy, how can u fold KK or QQ if u cant fold KQ where the only possibility of winning is a backdoor straight (1 out by the way).

I think the turn action on this hands needs to be turned up a notch.

PokerBob

04-05-2005, 07:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How can u fold KK or QQ here? His turn action even though its just a bet doesnt indicate that u are beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. So we call the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
To me this seems like a typical play that lower pairs will take (88-JJ) -- keep betting through, "dont want to give free cards, just grab your balls and take the plunge."

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ isn't good for us here.

[ QUOTE ]
I think its completely possible if u pop the turn he could fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Why on earth would I want him to fold drawing to 2-3 cards?

[ QUOTE ]
most likely he calls and checks to u on the river if he doesnt improve to a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't check to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Here he did improve, but no where before the river can u fold KK or QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well once we get bet into on the river, we need a pretty good read on our opponent to CALL, not to fold. From villain's perspective, how often is this bet a stone bluff? I doubt less than 1 in 9.

[ QUOTE ]
No to rag u, but u are the KQ guy, how can u fold KK or QQ if u cant fold KQ where the only possibility of winning is a backdoor straight (1 out by the way).

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing a hand poorly in the past does not mean I play all future hands poorly. At leas I hope not.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn action on this hands needs to be turned up a notch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, if you ARE going to bet into the guy, the turn is the WORST place to do it. You'll get raised when behind and he'll fold when you're way ahead. If he raises, you're not going to want to call, but you'll be hard-pressed to fold.

jason_t

04-05-2005, 07:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Just saw results. Haha, he did have 99. Pop the turn, he might have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your goal is to win money, not pots. You don't want him folding a 2-outer on the turn.

mr magoo

04-05-2005, 08:18 AM

why not check raise or bet out the the turn? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

ErrantNight

04-05-2005, 09:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I put him on 99-QQ, lower for some reason, most likely his river action gave me 99. Throughout the hand, I put him on a pair that didnt touch the flop or turn (I dont think he has jacks). Pop up the turn. He bets/raises I say re-raise. I firmly believe especially with the A helping u, u are ahead. He might even fold beliving his low pair is beat.

If he had 99 he sucked out with a set. Pop the turn, maybe ppl will disagree, but Im going with a read that u are ahead. And yes, fold to a bet on the flop without the backdoor flush out there.

EDIT: Just saw results. Haha, he did have 99. Pop the turn, he might have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

check/call on the turn is standard.

don't be results oriented.

CallMeIshmael

04-05-2005, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I put him on 99-QQ, lower for some reason, most likely his river action gave me 99. Throughout the hand, I put him on a pair that didnt touch the flop or turn (I dont think he has jacks). Pop up the turn. He bets/raises I say re-raise. I firmly believe especially with the A helping u, u are ahead. He might even fold beliving his low pair is beat.

If he had 99 he sucked out with a set. Pop the turn, maybe ppl will disagree, but Im going with a read that u are ahead. And yes, fold to a bet on the flop without the backdoor flush out there.

EDIT: Just saw results. Haha, he did have 99. Pop the turn, he might have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Buy the "Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky. You dont understand the FTOP.

CallMeIshmael

04-05-2005, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your goal is to win money, not pots. You don't want him folding a 2-outer on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief09

04-05-2005, 10:27 AM

I check-fold flop

sthief09

04-05-2005, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I check-fold flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand- combos, outs
AA- 3, 1.5
KK- 6, 4.5
QQ- 3, 4.5
JJ- 3, 1 (discount 1/3 of backdoor clubs)
TT- 6, 7.5
99 (I'm discounting by half since he won't always 3-bet 99)- 3, 7.5
AK- 12, 4.5
AQ (same as for 99)- 4.5, 8 (see below)

for AQ, let's say you'll check fold the turn unless it's a club, A, or Q. that means you have 4 outs to chop by the turn, plus another 9 clubs (10 minus the Qc) to chop because he'll check through the river. so you have 13 outs to a chop, or 6.5 effective outs. then you have 1.5 outs for a flush, so 8 outs

4.85 outs

it's close. I don't know how to downgrade that for reverse implied odds, but every time you hit an A or a Q against AK, JJ, QQ (just a Q), AA, or KK, you're getting raised