am i getting too push-happy?

[syphlix]

not sure if i'm pushing all-in too much...

is this bad?... i'm not sure what my other option is... if i bet pot that's half my stack... or is this jhust too early to be doing this?

oh converter seems to be a little messed up... but i pushed first to act w/ 655 chips on the flop

this is an 11...



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t215)
Button (t690)
SB (t1235)
BB (t990)
Hero (t745)
UTG+1 (t245)
MP1 (t1415)
MP2 (t1680)
MP3 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, UTG+1 calls t90, MP1 calls t90, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>.

Flop: (t315) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 calls t655.

Turn: (t970) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

River: (t970) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: t970

[Sam T.]

Why do you want to bet the pot? Let's assume the villain did not hit his set or random two pair, and you are ahead:

-If he's on any str8 draw except JQ (or 89, I guess), he has 4 outs. (In most cases if he's on QJ, he's calling no matter what you bet, so it's a moot point.)
-If he paired his 7 or Ten, he's got five outs: two to a set, and three more to two-pair. If he paired his King, he's got just the three.

In each of these cases, you do not need to bet the pot in order to give the villain incorrect odds to call. My rule of thumb is that if only a str8 is out there, bet 1/2 the pot, giving the villain 3:1 on his call, which would make calling incorrect in any of the above situations. If there is a flush draw (or flush and str8 possibilities), bump it up to 2/3 of the pot. (See Harrington's MTT book for more on this.)

Where you could run into trouble is if you bet 1/2 the pot, and the first player calls. The second then is getting 4:1 on his call - still incorrect for most draws, but not quite as bad. But I think in most cases a bet here will fold out at least one villain.

I'd be happy to hear an argument in favor of the pot-sized bet, though.

Sam

[shejk]

Well, he's betting twice the pot here, no?

Interesting discussion on bet sizes none the less.

[raptor517]

actually, if he has JQ he has 7 outs to a straight. and if he has 89, he has 8 outs. if this is any level above 10+1, a person wont call his whole stack with a JQ here. on a side note, pushing isnt terrible here. 3uo

[Sam T.]

Yes, but his logic (I think) is: I want to bet the pot, but that would be a huge chunk of my stack, so I might as well push.

I agree that if he is going to bet half his stack, he should push. I just don't think that he needs to bet half his stack.

Sam

[syphlix]

ok... so how bout this scenario... i bet half the pot to screw his odds... 1 person calls... i have around 400-450 left

turn comes blank... what to do there?... being OOP really sucks on this hand

[syphlix]

oh.. and sam you were right about my logic... my logic was (pot is half my stack i mite as well push)...

also... do ppl usually bet half-pots and the such to kill people's odds?... i think a lot of time if i bet something like that... even w/ position... i'm lost on the next card...

[Sam T.]

Let's take it from the flop:

There's t315 in the pot, and you've got t655. You bet t160, and get one caller.

On the turn there's now t635 in the pot, and you've got t495 left. Now a 1/2 pot bet is well over half your stack, so pushing is the right play.

Where the 1/2 pot bet also pays off is if there is a lot of action, you can still get away from the hand. Granted that's unlikely in this situation, but the following scenario is not uncommon:

You flop TPTK and a scary board (In this case, say it was KQT, or K-high monotone). You bet 1/2 the pot, the first caller pushes, and the second calls his push. (Or, you bet 1/2 the pot, the first caller raises, and the second pushes.) Still like your pair?

I guess the larger point is that as Sklansky has pointed out, you make money only when your opponents make a mistake. When you make a pot-sized bet, and the villain folds his draw he is making the right play. (And as another poster pointed out, above the 11s, they will fold every time.

If you offer him more attractive (yet still incorrect) odds, and he calls, he is making the wrong play, and you are making money. Will they sometimes hit their four-outer? Sure, every ten hands or so, and he may bust you when this happens, but that's poker.

Sam

[Sam T.]

Let's take it from the flop:

There's t315 in the pot, and you've got t655. You bet t160, and get one caller.

On the turn there's now t635 in the pot, and you've got t495 left. Now a 1/2 pot bet is well over half your stack, so pushing is the right play.

Where the 1/2 pot bet also pays off is if there is a lot of action, you can still get away from the hand. Granted that's unlikely in this situation, but the following scenario is not uncommon:

You flop TPTK and a scary board (In this case, say it was KQT, or K-high monotone). You bet 1/2 the pot, the first caller pushes, and the second calls his push. (Or, you bet 1/2 the pot, the first caller raises, and the second pushes.) Still like your pair?

I guess the larger point is that as Sklansky has pointed out, you make money only when your opponents make a mistake. When you make a pot-sized bet, and the villain folds his draw he is making the right play. (And as another poster pointed out, above the 11s, they will fold every time.)

If you offer him more attractive (yet still incorrect) odds, and he calls, he is making the wrong play, and you are making money. Will they sometimes hit their four-outer? Sure, every ten hands or so, and he may bust you when this happens, but that's poker.

Sam