Did something just Click?

[ksuns]

I have been playing poker for about 9 months now and play online probably more than I should. Additionally, I read all Sklansky books and watched the Helmouth (spelling?)video. I used to play 3/6 and would lose all the time - well, i would win then kick it back, etc. About a week and a half ago I put in $120 and won about $300 in the 3/6 games and stepped it up to 5/10 and have been winning a lot of money (roughly $1600). Is this a fluke, or does becoming effective at poker eventually click? Please tell me your thoughts.

Also, everytime I read one of Sklansky's books, I learn a lot, but lose the next time I get on the computer. Therefore, I find reading this site and his books (which I picked up again yesterday) to be really bad luck. Am I the only one?

[Onaflag]

No, you are not the only one. A lot of people go through this phase at the very beginning which is exactly where you're at. You'll laugh at this a year from now.

Now, before anything happens to your bankroll, STOP what you're doing and get the Hell away from 5/10. It is a fluke and flukes like this are not uncommon. It is how I got a starting bankroll.

I don't know if you have PokerTracker or not. If not, get it now. Today. While you still have money. Start reviewing your play comparing it against what you read. Compare your plays against plays here on the forums. Ask specific questions and ponder the replies carefully.

Other opinions may differ, but I say get a grip on your game before you lose your roll. I would single table 2/4 right now until you get better. Others may suggest going even lower which actually may be better. Trust me on one thing.......you got lucky and that is good. Now do the right thing and learn how to build on it, not lose it.

Onaflag..........

[ksuns]

I appreciate your response - it was helpful. However, what basis are you going on? I know experience is huge, but I feel that I can handle myself at this level. I agree that I did get a few good hands w/ a lot of action, but the opposite has been true too. Yesterday, I lost a $200 pot w/ pocket A's to 4 6 two pair. However, you are probably right.

At what point do you think I should move up to 5/10? What do you play? How long have you been playing?

[PotatoStew]

The generally accepted guideline is to have at least 300BB for the level you're playing. So, to play 5/10 you should have $3000. This is because swings happen, and even an expert can lose a significant portion of that 300BB. If you can replenish your bankroll, then you don't need to be as strict about this, but if you want to avoid making repeated deposits, it's good advice.

With the bankroll and experience you have now, I agree -- don't go any higher than 2/4. It's probably better to drop down to .50/1 for now though until you've proven to yourself over a longer time period that you actually are winning. Anything can happen in the short term.

[Onaflag]

I'm sure we'll get a mix of opinions on this, but the reason I said what I did is because I went through the same experience a couple years ago.

I'd read 2+2 books and it'd hurt my game. I was convinced Sklansky was evil. There are even websites out there to prove it. I thought I knew what I was doing, but in retrospect, had not even the first clue. To top it off, I put $100 on Party and that night won about $600 at 3/6, single tabling nonetheless.

The next day I had one of those "religious moments" and admitted to myself that I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I was determined to not lose what I got lucky making. I was break-even now after all those $50 deposits to Pokerstars.

I found these forums, bought PokerTracker, studied, talked about hands and strategy with a friend, studied some more and the rest is history. I hang out at 2/4 for the moment because I keep cashing out to buy things for the family. For me, its important to show the wife and kid what poker does for our finances. Now that they know that I know what I'm doing, I'll keep more online to make the steady moves up the ladder.

It can be a mixed blessing to win in the beginning. I personally stepped back for a minute and got "real honest - real quick" with myself and here I am a couple years later grinding out a damn good side income.

Onaflag..........

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate your response - it was helpful. However, what basis are you going on? I know experience is huge, but I feel that I can handle myself at this level. I agree that I did get a few good hands w/ a lot of action, but the opposite has been true too. Yesterday, I lost a $200 pot w/ pocket A's to 4 6 two pair. However, you are probably right.

At what point do you think I should move up to 5/10? What do you play? How long have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is right. He knows because he has been where you are and knows where he is now. Drop down to a limit so that your bankroll is at least 300 big bets and if you lose a chunk of that drop down again. Get pokertracker and play winning poker for at least 20k hands at a limit before moving up and learn about and strictly follow bankroll guidelines. I play mostly limit holdem 3/6 and 5/10 and I have about 250k hands online experience.

Good luck and good playing.

[Rduke55]

I agree on the reading thing but for a different reason. Initially after reading you're trying new, unfamiliar things. Of course you may lose until you get proficient at using these ideas.
Reading Sklansky is like reworking your golf swing. Sure it will mess you up for a little while but eventually you'll be better for it.

[ksuns]

Like the golf swing analogy. Very good point.

[HollywoodDB]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing poker for about 9 months now and play online probably more than I should. Additionally, I read all Sklansky books and watched the Helmouth (spelling?)video. I used to play 3/6 and would lose all the time - well, i would win then kick it back, etc. About a week and a half ago I put in $120 and won about $300 in the 3/6 games and stepped it up to 5/10 and have been winning a lot of money (roughly $1600). Is this a fluke, or does becoming effective at poker eventually click? Please tell me your thoughts.

Also, everytime I read one of Sklansky's books, I learn a lot, but lose the next time I get on the computer. Therefore, I find reading this site and his books (which I picked up again yesterday) to be really bad luck. Am I the only one?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many hands have you played? If it's less than 30k it's not very accurate. If it's less than 10k, it's not even close. I'm sure you are a great player, I'm not doubting that. But until you have a solid sample size, you will not know where you stand.

[ksuns]

I can't really provide an accurate estimate. Since June, I have played almost every day - about 2 hours a day. So I would estimate: 200 hands per day x 300 days = 60,000 - 15,000 for days I didn't play that much, etc. 45,000 probably.

[grimel]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd read 2+2 books and it'd hurt my game. I was convinced Sklansky was evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can put me in that camp too! I bought Hold'em Poker. Read it through 2x and proceded to get stomped up one side and down the other. Reread Hellmuth's Play Poker Like a Pro, started winning again. Read Carson's Complete Guide to Hold'em. Started winning some more.

Needed change for a $100. Couldn't find anyplace in the parking lot to break it other than a book store. Bought Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players (Sklansky & Malmuth). Read most of it.

Carson's book has been the most important. He combined/explained who, what, when, where, and why of Hellmuth's and Sklansky's books differant approach. Now, they both make sense (along with Carson's approach). Which way is better? ALL OF THEM. I still don't have 100% grasp of Sklansky's approach, but, it makes a lot more sense and he's not nearly as evil as he was.

I was making one little bitty mistake - trying to use low limit card rankings/concepts/strategy in NL games.

Now, I'll start learning to play limit if it kills me.

[Louie Landale]

If it clicks you'll know it before you notice the results. Here are some example "clicks": [1] You raise late with KJ, he calls with a probable better hand. On the flop you miss but bet, and he calls. On the turn you KNOW you can check-raise bluff because he's real aggressive and would have raised with any pair and will bet and fold the turn. [2] You raise with QQ, he calls. Flop is J94. You bet, he ponders then raises. You know this player would never raise with just a pair of jacks but he may slow play Ks or As. You lay it down. [3] The player bets the flop and you call with a straight draw. On the turn he bets but doesn't like it. You know that no matter what comes on the river you can bluff after he checks. [4] You raise early, he calls. Flop is AT4. You bet, he calls. You know he's got AJ.

Anything like these happening to you all of a sudden?

Wild fluctuations are a reality of the game. Deal with it.

- Louie

[PukaPlaya]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, before anything happens to your bankroll, STOP what you're doing and get the Hell away from 5/10. It is a fluke and flukes like this are not uncommon. It is how I got a starting bankroll.


[/ QUOTE ]


Listen to this advice. I went through a similar experience. I had just won my first decent sized tourney which pumped my bank up to 5K. I had been watching the 20/40 tables and decided to give them a shot. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif In 4 days multi-tabling I ran my roll up to 11k only to go lose all those winnings plus 1k over the next two. I was left with 4k and a sick feeling in my stomach for not realizing how lucky I had gotten. I wanted to puke I was so sick of what I had done.

You dont have an adequate bank to handle 5-10 and you did get lucky.

Move down and get poker tracker and study your results as recommended. No need to rush into the higher levels until you are sure you are ready.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate your response - it was helpful. However, what basis are you going on? I know experience is huge, but I feel that I can handle myself at this level. I agree that I did get a few good hands w/ a lot of action, but the opposite has been true too. Yesterday, I lost a $200 pot w/ pocket A's to 4 6 two pair. However, you are probably right.

At what point do you think I should move up to 5/10? What do you play? How long have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most players who are cautious about their bankroll will move up (if they feel they are ready) when they have 300 Big Bets at the next level. In your case this would be $3000.

I think that the reason that the 2+2 Sklansky approach is not working for you is because it is very agressive and it will cause you to win more in the long run but also cause bigger swings in your bankroll. Since you are not following the 300BB rule (playing 3/6 with way under that) that is probably why you have busted out in the past.

You are lucky now, you have a big enough roll to handle 3/6 and you did not grind your way up from .25/50 to get it. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Greg

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
[3] The player bets the flop and you call with a straight draw. On the turn he bets but doesn't like it. You know that no matter what comes on the river you can bluff after he checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that was the case the right move would be to raise the turn, no? That would seem to be a better way to spend 2 BB on such a hand. There's never a case where you are 100 percent sure the guy is gonna fold on the river. He could hit on the river and check-call or just bet.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
[2] You raise with QQ, he calls. Flop is J94. You bet, he ponders then raises. You know this player would never raise with just a pair of jacks but he may slow play Ks or As. You lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are laying down QQ to a single raise on the flop I dont think anything has "clicked" just yet.

-Brad

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[2] You raise with QQ, he calls. Flop is J94. You bet, he ponders then raises. You know this player would never raise with just a pair of jacks but he may slow play Ks or As. You lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are laying down QQ to a single raise on the flop I dont think anything has "clicked" just yet.

-Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have this read and you don't lay it down, you have a problem. You should't put money in the pot when you're beaten and you don't have the pot odss to draw. Remember in his hypothetical, he "knows" the player wouldn't raise with just a pair.

Having said that, I'm skeptical about being that confident the player would "never" raise with top pair here. Maybe they are great friends and the guy has told him a hundred times he never raises a PF raiser without at least two pair. [/] shrug [/]

--Zetack

[johnc]

Your story sounds very familar. I've been at it for a little less than a year now mostly live 3/6 some online. I struggled for the 1st couple of months and lost about $300 and decided to read SSHE. Well, afterwards I hit the tables and was on fire, my bankroll rocketed up to $1600, not including some that I took out to spend on personal stuff, I thought I was hot stuff!! Needless to say regression to the mean took place and I suffered a number of humiliating losses lately which brought me back to reality which is: I'm not even 1/2 as good as I thought I was, and poker is a game that you got to work real hard at to be decent let alone good. Take the previous advice to PROTECT your bankroll!! Take your time and learn the game well before you make a jump up in limits.