I check, I call, I check, I call, I check.

[bunky9590]

Awesome 10-20 6 max table from tonights session. i have a 2+2er sweating me, and even he comments on how awesome the game is for like 1-2 standards.

I considered the turn checkraise, I considered the lead out, i decided on a river checkraise is less likely to get three bet.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Alright comments and impeding criticisms.

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

Why do you expect to get 3-bet in a game that, if I remember 1/2 correctly, is far looser and far more passive than the 10/20 game? I understand the MP 3-bet you and that may be why you're skittish, but I think a turn C/R is perfect.

[arkady]

wow bud,

MP can have 77-JJ, AKs; like an insane amount of time and will be paying off...like an insane amount of time.

yes, that dress makes you look fat. change it.

[bunky9590]

I didnt put a read on the guy who three bet, I hadn't seen him three bet at all and my UTG raises and my raises in total were getting respect.

Let me ask you, If you hold say 88 there and I checkraise you on the turn, you pay me off? Seriously? I can see folding out the hands that I have in bad shape but worse hands may still bet that river, while better hands three bet me.

If not the turn checkraise, i should have bet the river.

[Schneids]

I either bet the flop and see what happens, or if I check/call, check/call (which I'm fine with doing too), I bet the river.

[SCfuji]

do you pay off a river raise from the original pf 3-bettor?

[mperich]

Bet -&gt; 3betting the flop will make this hand much easier to play on later streets IMO. Plus, assuming the pf raiser raises which he usually will, it either folds out the donks who like to cold call 3 pf, or it makes it even more of a mistake to draw to their 1 clean overcard or weird gutshot or whatever they have.

Yep, bet flop.

-Mike

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
do you pay off a river raise from the original pf 3-bettor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[danng721]

You MUST bet the flop hoping for a raise. Think about it this way, none of your opponents were making a mistake on all three streets except for you.

[DrGutshot]

[ QUOTE ]
You MUST bet the flop hoping for a raise. Think about it this way, none of your opponents were making a mistake on all three streets except for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

While in theory this is good advice, I find that it happens much more rarely than expected. I have only incorporated this into my game when the pfr is very aggressive postflop.

That being said, if you're not going to push this on the flop and turn, defnitely bet out the river and call a raise.

-DrG

[arkady]

well it is an unfair question, but I guarantee you the average 10/20 player will totally pay off w/88. Crap, there is only ONE overcard on the board! The payoff also hinges on how they view you. Returning back to our scenario there are quite a few players that I will take 88 to SD w/1 or even 2 overcards. Against you, like i said, i will not /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[danng721]

[ QUOTE ]
While in theory this is good advice, I find that it happens much more rarely than expected. I have only incorporated this into my game when the pfr is very aggressive postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people who 3-bet PF will raise this, but anyways, this isn't really the issue. Not betting here is a huge mistake. OK, how about this argument. With a large pot, you want to maximize your chances of winning it. Check calling the flop and turn does not accomplish this.

[Spladle Master]

And then I bet again on sixth street.

[bunky9590]

I agree I should have bet the river. I decided to get greedy and go for a checkraise.

I don't see what all the fuss is over the check/call flop and check/call turn line.

Why not let them thump in bets on both streets when I likely have them drawing to two and three outs (or I am drawing to 2 or three outs)

Not Betting the river was my biggest mistake here by far.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, if you're not going to push this on the flop and turn, defnitely bet out the river and call a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

The more I thought abotu this hand after I played it this is the line I like the best. If I'm going to checkraise anywhere it would be the turn, leading out into the PFR here on the flop accomplishes jack squat.

[mperich]

Except for getting more money in the pot when ur likely ahead, as well as possibly thinning the field in a large pot.

-Mike

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Except for getting more money in the pot when ur likely ahead, as well as possibly thinning the field in a large pot.



[/ QUOTE ]

Leading out on the flop is not going to accomplish this. Aside from the getting the money in. But, with me leading into a PFR after he three bets and gets three callers, wouldn't you see that a a sign of strength?

I think a check call on this flop is far superior to just I have top pair so I bet. Try and think past ABC poker for one second. You are going to put the brakes on any hand that is lower than yours that would bet the flop, checkraising the flop is not going to thin this field out in this swollen PF 5 way 3 bets each pot.

I'll give you a turn check raise though thats not to "thin the field" thats to get MORE money in the pot when I likely have them drawing to 5 outs collectively or I am drawing to 5 against a better hand.

Ive looked at it from pretty much every angle and I cant see what a flop bet does for "increasing my chances of winning"

[ggbman]

I'd want to put in a raise somewhere here on this board.

[maxpowers21]

If, i assume that MP is a two plus two-er, which i asumme is what you meant, i would very much want to put some vaule raises in on the flop or turn, he will much more likely have the worst hand here and you want to

1. eliminate outs on the flop/turn, from opponets, whatever is a better value-raise

2. or, a BETTER, eliminate outs on the flop/turn from opponets, whatever is a better value-raise

To not raise a single street post flop is obviously wrong, no matter what game you are playing.

i prefer leading out on the flop, because bettign is fun /images/graemlins/smile.gif
and raisng is funner /images/graemlins/smile.gif, and you will very likely get raised on this flop with the best hand, get in a ton of bets on the flop with the best hand,

ie. more than 1 bet, if the turn is a K maybe slw down but i bet/3bet the flop with the intent to lead out the river to anything other than a cap on the flop, because you are far more liquely to be ahead here and why try to cehck raise when you can just vaule bet/3bet instead,

so many better optiond ehrn you take the lead here.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd want to put in a raise somewhere here on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

if Im raising anywhere, its the turn, not the flop.

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
But, with me leading into a PFR after he three bets and gets three callers, wouldn't you see that a a sign of strength?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I do. And you do. And maybe even the donk in this awesome 10/20 game does. But he probably doesnt, and even if he does he might put in a raise anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to put the brakes on any hand that is lower than yours that would bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if noone raises, you are still going to be making the same amount as if you check call, with a good chance to make more. If this game is awesome, these ppl arent folding a 3betting hand on the flop and probably not on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
checkraising the flop is not going to thin this field out in this swollen PF 5 way 3 bets each pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it won't, but I never suggested that. The PF 3better is acting one behind you. A bet into him will face the field with two cold if he raises. I hate checkraising the flop and think its inferior to both betting out and the line you took.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give you a turn check raise though thats not to "thin the field" thats to get MORE money in the pot when I likely have them drawing to 5 outs collectively or I am drawing to 5 against a better hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I realize the purpose of a turn check raise is not to thin the field. You are in a good position to check raise this turn and catch the field, and I believe this is probably the 2nd best line.

-Mike

[Peter]

I think I would have capped preflop.

Peter