A negative EV play.

[Willluck]

No reads.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.
Basically I was trying to induce a bluff or a bet from a weaker K. I figured they missed, or some caught a gutshot or already had it.Final Pot: 6.50 BB
I know it was a bad play but how much do you think I lost on this check.

[edtost]

1-1.5bb, party 2/4 requires you to be a value-betting machine.

[CallMeIshmael]

I like it a lot more without the word 'Probably' in the title.

Its kind of misleading.

Bet the river.

[Willluck]

lately especially, I can't count the number of times I have been called down by middle and bottom pair, sometimes ace high.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
I know it was a bad play but how much do you think I lost on this check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Approximately 1-2 BBs. You don't want to get fancy on the river and try for a checkraise or induce a bluff, especially at the 2-4 level. They are basically going to call you down with almost any pair and won't bet much themselves. That should be more than enough reason to bet the river.

[ QUOTE ]
I figured they missed, or some caught a gutshot or already had it

[/ QUOTE ]

You will lose a HUGE amount of money in the long run if you check a good hand on the river everytime a gutshot hits or a straight is on the board. Poker rewards aggression, so don't be afraid of monsters under the bed.

Haupt_234

[afk]

In addition to betting the river I would have raised preflop.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition to betting the river I would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

from the SB with 3 already in? why? (not being an ass, seriously curious)

[threeonefour]

i don't think checking the river is a huge mistake but i do think you are giving up money there...

not raising preflop is just about as bad imo.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In addition to betting the river I would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
from the SB with 3 already in? why? (not being an ass, seriously curious)

[/ QUOTE ]

CO has a random hand, BB has a random hand and the Button and a nearly random hand (what decent hand aren't you raising with there) or is a bad player at the very least.

I think KQo has a lot of equity given that field, even out of position.

just ran a sim and KQo has about 35% equity preflop against three random hands. this makes it a very clear raise even if you take into account that you are out of position

[thirddan]

3 players are not already in...

the poster checks which is a real sign of weakness since he pretty much has a green light to try and pick up the blinds with any hand, a check shows that he probably has a worse than average hand...

also, a raise gives you a chance to get some dead money into the pot and fold the BB, and your hand is probably the best...raising preflop also gives you the lead and will allow hero to pick up the pot ont he flop a lot of the time...


and missing this river bet costs around 1BB i would imagine, which is a pretty huge mistake...

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In addition to betting the river I would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

from the SB with 3 already in? why? (not being an ass, seriously curious)

[/ QUOTE ]

CO posts and checks his option. then button, who sees this, still just limps in. this is an easy easy raise.

[ QUOTE ]
lately especially, I can't count the number of times I have been called down by middle and bottom pair, sometimes ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have no idea why you'd want to try and pick off a river bluff

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
3 players are not already in...

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely missed the poster. Just for shits and giggles, do you raise if MP3 had button limped if there was no poster? What about an EP player? (I could probably guess the last one)

[ QUOTE ]
and missing this river bet costs around 1BB i would imagine, which is a pretty huge mistake...

[/ QUOTE ]

..And it's not even close.

[thirddan]

i raise KQ from damn near any position in any situation...this is an easy raise especially after a weak limper, even with the positional disadvantage...

[edtost]

not raising pf is a small mistake, if its a mistake at all (which i don't think it is). not betting the river is a gigantic error.

[thirddan]

" lately especially, I can't count the number of times I have been called down by middle and bottom pair, sometimes ace high. "

not sure which post this was in, but it doesn't matter...

the key to this statement is taht you have been "called down by them"...you have been given no proof that they play aggressively with these kinds of hands and will rarely take a shot with a river bluff or value bet, however they will call your bet which is why you must value bet in cases like this and why missing these bets is such a huge mistake...

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
not raising pf is a small mistake, if its a mistake at all (which i don't think it is). not betting the river is a gigantic error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Letting BB and the poster see the flop for free is a pretty big mistake in my opinion.

[thirddan]

i think that not raising preflop is a bigger mistake than you are saying, although not as big as missing the river bet...

[edtost]

yeah, i suck at reading, missed the poster.

raise it up!

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think checking the river is a huge mistake but i do think you are giving up money there...

not raising preflop is just about as bad imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're both mistakes.

Not betting the river is much worse though.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
lately especially, I can't count the number of times I have been called down by middle and bottom pair, sometimes ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above bolding is mine. This quote tells you exactly why you MUST bet this river. Don't get fancy.

I always like to quote CDC here, "Betting is under-rated." Another very applicable quote here (from Clarkmiester, I think), "People like to call. I like to let them."


Also, as other's have said...auto-raise this preflop.


Adam

[Willluck]

I don't think you give two limpers enough credit.

[edtost]

i think you give a poster checking in the co and an openlimping (close enough) button way too much credit.

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you give two limpers enough credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean one limper. the other posted. and the limper was on the button... how can you give any credit there?

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
They're both mistakes.

Not betting the river is much worse though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its really player dependent. with no reads you are probably right. but there are A TON of 2/4 players that will bluff with any pair or ace high (or even any busted gutshot draw) after the bet call bet call check... action (and they would still be capable of folding many of those hands if you bet the river). so I would estimate that over the long run this play is losing a fair amount of money but I would guess less than 1 BB.

in the end, i guess you are right it is a big mistake. but not raising preflop is a very big mistake and it is not a very easy mistake to make. a decent player should easily be able to pick raising as the max EV play right away.


NOTE: someone said Party requires you to be a value betting machine so I guess that means party 2/4 is pretty passive. in which case there may not actually be a ton of players like i mentioned. I don't play 2/4 there so I guess my comment on 2/4 table dynamics might be a little misguided.