Never Again? Well, maybe once more

[Gamblor]

Russians call for ban on Jewish Groups (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3067416,00.html)

Some 5,000 religious Orthodox activists in Russia have signed a petition that calls for outlawing Jewish organizations in the country.

The petition calls for a ban on Jewish groups and argues that Jewish literature, such as the book Shulchan Aruch (a repository of Jewish Law written originally by Rabbi Yosef Karo in the 1560's,) foments religious hatred.

Among those who signed the petition are several prominent Russian public figures, such as former Chess World Champion Boris Spassky, author Vasily Belov, and mathematician Igor Shafarevich.

Russian Parliament Member Alexander Krutov told the Moscow Times "the public raises such questions (regarding the banning of Jewish organizations), and they should be discussed."

In January some 500 Russians, among them 20 members of the State Duma (the lower house of parliament,) presented a similar letter to the Prosecutor's Office.

The letter said Jewish organizations were "anti-Christian and inhumane, and their customs go as far as ceremonial murder." (poster's note: blood libel returns!)

Regarding Boris Spassky, he said "people who have achieved success in life and hold certain status in society must understand they are putting their name to shame when they sign such petitions."

Barkan added that in 2004 some 155 anti-Semitic incidents occurred in Russia, compared to 83 in 2003.

[MelchyBeau]

This is what happens when you cross the jews. They use thier international banking power to destroy your economy.

Yeah, this is pretty f*d up. Russia has had a long history of anti-semetic behavior correct?

Melch

[gamblore99]

which side is spassky on? he signs the petition and then says signing is to shame your name.

[Gamblor]

I snip snipped a couple lines.

Actually, it was a Russian MP who said that.

Of course, the early Nazis were a fringe party too.

[zaxx19]

Europe, Anti semitism, a half dead country...

Meh, just too typical.

Next we need Dead to get on this thread, announce he is indeed Jewish, then proceed to enumerate the reasons why the Russians signing this rag were correct in acting bc Jewish groups have by and large been hijacked by Genocidal Zionist elements.

Ahh, 2+2 it really doesnt provide much in the way of suprises lately.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Never Again? Well, maybe once more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Czar's Russia has a history of extensive pogroms against the Jews. However, there is simply no significant probability of such events happening again in Russia or the Eastern European countries in the foreseeable future.

I support the alertness but let's not get carried away, as Betar freaks are wont to do.


[ QUOTE ]
The early Nazis were a fringe party too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with people stamping on the snake's head when the snake is just a baby. (Metaphorically speaking, PETA people!) But it is absurd to equate Hitler's chances of achieving power with people like Zirinovsky ever amounting to something more serious than being the LePen's of Russian politics (and even that is debatable).


[ QUOTE ]
Which side is [former Chess World Champion Boris] Spassky on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I am sorry (and quite surprised) to see Spassky signing such crap. He has always been a most decent man, someone who was after good times rather than any kind of ideological grandstanding in life. His behavior towards besieged persons in Soviet Russia was examplary -- he refused to sign petitions denouncing Korchnoi until he could no longer withstand the pressure, he helped people, he stood up for Fischer when the Soviet propaganda machine raged against the American, and so on.

But speaking of Fischer, I think that Spassky has been associating with the wrong people for too long a time. Spassky has a fondness in his heart for Bobby, acting like an older brother figure to the sociopathic American, ever since Reykjavik 1972. Fischer's anti-semitic ranting must have rubbed off on Spassky, some.

[Gamblor]

The Holocaust and the genocides and crimes against humanity that have followed - Rwanda and the Balkans, for example - began with benign hatred, which fostered intolerance, inflamed the passions of the masses and created the atmosphere making mass murder acceptable and desirable.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The Holocaust and the genocides and crimes against humanity that have followed - Rwanda and the Balkans, for example - began with benign hatred, which fostered intolerance, inflamed the passions of the masses and created the atmosphere making mass murder acceptable and desirable.

[/ QUOTE ]

We had mass murder and genocide before the Jews' holocaust of WWII. The Turks slaughtered in cold blood and ost methodically some one million of Armenians in the early 1920s, for instance.

Wholesale slaughtering of "enemy races" runs through human history for most of its childhood period. Some parts of the world, eg Rwanda, are still in that period. Other parts pf the world delude themselves that they are out of it. No names wil be named.

Israel is a throwback to those times. (At least, the way people like Zabotinsky set it up, as opposed to how people like the man Amos want it to be.) A heavy weight dragging us all back to the epoch of such apocalyptic and genocidal "politics".

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Israel is a throwback to those times

[/ QUOTE ]

And you sir are a throwback to the Nazis....

If you are gonna lie-GO BIG-and keep lying....eventually if the subject of your lies is unpopular enough(as the Jews) alot of ignorant people will begin to believe the lies.

[zaxx19]

Oh, and its Jabotinsky....

[Dead]

Zaxx,

First off, I am Jewish.

I will let others elaborate as to the reasons why the Russians signing this were correct in doing so. They acted because Jewish groups have by and large been hijacked by genocidal Zionist elements.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[zaxx19]

See now thats funny......

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Israel is a throwback to those times

[/ QUOTE ]

And you sir are a throwback to the Nazis....

If you are gonna lie-GO BIG-and keep lying....eventually if the subject of your lies is unpopular enough(as the Jews) alot of ignorant people will begin to believe the lies.

[/ QUOTE ]
From both sides. :P Israel isn't the happiest place on earth, wouldn't you agree? Better than Rwanda though.

[Dead]

Stop making sense.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Israel is a throwback to those times. (At least, the way people like Zabotinsky set it up, as opposed to how people like the man Amos want it to be.) A heavy weight dragging us all back to the epoch of such apocalyptic and genocidal "politics".

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, Cyrus, there are still widespread elements amongst the Gentiles and the Arabs who would like to see the Jews eliminated or at minimum oppressed. Israel is a refuge against all that.

The REAL throwback to the times of which you speak, is not Israel, but rather all the ignorant racist/totalitarian-minded jackasses that still inhabit so much of the world.

If it weren't for virulent widespread anti-Semitism, Israel would not be necessary. So: blame the anti-semites for making all this a reality. Israel is not the throwback, the ignorant hateful anti-Semites which infest so much of the world are. Basically, it is their fault, throughout the ages, and today.

They are the "heavy weight" of which you speak, which is dragging us back to the bad times you mention.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
If it weren't for virulent widespread anti-Semitism, Israel would not be necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? More Jews live in America than in Israel. Part of the anti-semitism stems from some people mistakenly linking all Jews to Israel and its misguided policies.

[zaxx19]

Part of the anti-semitism stems from some people mistakenly linking all Jews to Israel and its misguided policies.

Hmm, think about that statement. Why would they be so apt to link negative qualaties to the wider realm of worlwide Jewry.

[Cyrus]

Your case is an interesting one. You are protesting when people point out the plethora of your mistakes, in logic, let alone grammar (more tactfully), that you are "smarter than them". However, as evidenced by your "input" here, so far, you only qualify as a smartass.



[ QUOTE ]
And you sir are a throwback to the Nazis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first couple of posts here used to be all caps. Now, it's all crap. You realize that this is not an improvement, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Eventually if the subject of your lies is unpopular enough (as the Jews) alot of ignorant people will begin to believe the lies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call this the equivalent of Lowball in arguing: You are trying for the lowest possible angle in order to win.

However, this does not work in the real world. People who use it are smart-ass but not smart.

[Gamblor]

Israel isn't the happiest place on earth,

Speak for yourself.

It's way more fun than Canada. Unfortunately, until this poker thing takes off, i'm stuck under my parents' financial umbrella.

[Gamblor]

Given this petition, and given that European Jews and Arab Jews are by and large subject to the same crap that they were 100 years ago, the necessity of a Jewish-majority state is quite obvious.

Of course, America is different. For the most part, America is devoid of racial/ethnic intolerance (on the surface, i dont know what you people talk about at home in your secret meetings. maybe you kill jewish babies to make english muffins or biscuits)

Now, so we have two places for Jews; America (in which I include Canada, parts of South America, and Australia) and Israel. In which of those states do Jews have complete and total self-determination? That is, if FOX or CNN broadcast some sort of religious epiphany and the sheep elected Pat Buchanan, how long would Jews have control over themselves?

Let me make it easier.

What if Russia and Europe decided to burn us all at the stake and 10 million Jews from around the world wanted to flee persecution and move to New York City, all at once? How fast would you take our tired weak, and huddled masses?

Israel would trip all over herself to bring them in, and has in the past.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Wholesale slaughtering of "enemy races" runs through human history for most of its childhood period. Some parts of the world, eg Rwanda, are still in that period. Other parts pf the world delude themselves that they are out of it. No names wil be named.

Israel is a throwback to those times

[/ QUOTE ]

You want a serious, thoughtful, and well researched(not to mention proofread) response to this kind of drivel??

Israel has had the capability to kill all the Palestinians for decades.

It hasnt.

Israel has now the capability to kill most the Arabs in the middle East.(~80%)

Barring unforssen military aggression by the Arabs that directly and immediately threatens the lives of all the Israelis, it wont deploy said measures.

Israel has granted citizenship to WELL over a million Arabs inside its border and accorded them every conceivable right a democracy can bestow on an individual.

It provides free health and educational services to indigent Arabs, hell it even pays for those arabs to have more kids!!

It doesnt force arabs to serve in the military, as it requires of all non-Arab citizens.

In the face of all that you sling accusations of genocide and expect a well reasoned serious response??

Honestly, I couldnt begin to think of where to begin.

[RagleGumm]

It's times like these I'm happy that my zionist father dragged me out of Europe to Israel.

peace

[Gamblor]

[ QUOTE ]
Israel would trip all over herself to bring them in, and has in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

After all, I owe my existence to this - how would my parents have ever met?

[lawpoker]

[ QUOTE ]


Yeah, this is pretty f*d up. Russia has had a long history of anti-semetic behavior correct?



[/ QUOTE ]

haha...welcome to europe. world-leading bastion of anti-semetism.

[lastchance]

I am speaking for myself.

BTW, what is Israel like? Wet, hot, dry? Anything out of the ordinary, by US standards?

[Gamblor]

hot and dry.

avg. temp in tel aviv summer is 100+

winter gets a bit of rain, it can get close to freezing, snows maybe one or two times a year in most parts. in the south its permahot.

rain is a big deal for the farmers, but for the most part israel has set up enough irrigation systems that its less of an issue now. in the north, there's lots of vegetation, trees, etc. etc. in the south, its desert.

its like california without the pollution.

its a country built on the tourist industry.

no minimum drinking age. lots of great clubs and bars and everyone has fun.

the best quote about israel i ever heard was that israelis are the first to knock you down to get on the bus and then the first to help you up. there's no such thing as a lineup. people leave their kids with total strangers while they run into a store. people park their cars on medians and have a barbecue in heavy traffic. the speed limit is a recommendation. anyone in the country is welcome in anyone else's house for friday night dinner. everyone has at least one bumper sticker on their car with some slogan. business is conducted in t-shirts and jeans. the biggest crime is letting someone take advantage of you. the second biggest crime in israel is taking yourself too seriously cause nobody will let you.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Chill down, gamblor. The anti-jewish sentiment is strong in Russia, in general it is a very racistic society, but it is far, far away from turning into a Holocaust-like situation.

[Dead]

It is likely strong because of the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

[Dead]

Maybe I will make aliyah someday and try to fix the situation.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
It is likely strong because of the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is not so much connected to that. Many Russians are very anti-moslem too (i.e. Putin)

[Dead]

Oh.

Well then fck them. I say that as someone of Russian ancestry.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I am Jewish.

[/ QUOTE ]
No....
Really?

[InchoateHand]

Pogrom doesn't count.

[Cyrus]

"You want a serious, thoughtful, and well researched( not to mention proofread) response??"

Nope. The bar is set quite low for you. Do your worse.

"Israel has had the capability to kill all the Palestinians for decades. It hasnt."

And do you see why?

"Israel has now the capability to kill most the Arabs in the middle East."

Israel has always been militarily strongest than all the Arab front-line states combined, you nincompoop. Its nuclear capability has been a fact of life since the 70s, if not the 60s. But Israel has restrained itself to the use of only conventional weaponry. Do you see why?

"Israel has granted citizenship to WELL over a million Arabs inside its border and accorded them every conceivable right a democracy can bestow on an individual."

Leaving aside the fact that the way you describe things takes so much salt that a dead salmon coulde be preserved in your post until 2100 AD, do you have any idea about the historical background of that situation, you nincompoop? Or should I again direct you, albeit pointlessly, to a few educational sources written by Jews well hated by the likes of Gamblor? I trust you don't and you won't.

"You sling accusations of genocide and expect a well reasoned serious response?"

No serious response is expected from you, not even after a brain transplant operation.

Israel, for the record, is not guilty of genocide on the scale of their Nazi enemies. (Neo-Nazis, on the other hand, have been the beneficiaries of Israel's love and affection quite often!) But Israel has been guilty of near-genocidal policies against the indigenous Semites. I would enumerate these policies in brief but that would be like explaining the table of elements to a cat.

And as a matter of supreme historical irony, just as old Adfolph had all his plans for the Jews laid out for the world to see in his text "My Struggle", so the Reformed Zionists (<font color="blue">Z</font>abotinsky, et al) had their plans to conquer the land and subdue and/or eliminate its inhabitants for all the world to see. Yes, they were quite sorry and sometimes felt guilty about it, as we subsequently learn --- but do did Obergruppenführer Heydrich at nights (see Malaparte's Kaput). Yes, that includes Ben-Gurion.

So, to come back to what made you take offense: Genocidal policies are a colossal anachronism. Israel is guilty of near-genocidal policies. Connect the dots.

[zaxx19]

I dont even know what you are really saying.

If you mean Zev Zabotinsky he was a pretty obscure Zionist figure and perhaps would narrowly make a top 50 or 100 list.

Jabotinsky was a MUCH more prominent Jewish nationalist who would rate in the top 5 -sorry for the apparent confusion.



Basically the krux of the issue is you see Israel as a neo-colonial construct and therefore illegal-immoral-and anachronistic/reactionary. All your thinking flows from that font of presupposition.

I do not share that view.

The resulting gap in logic is far too wide to bridge.

I just dont have the inclination to endure a protracted cut and paste fest with you where both of us link sources we know are aympathetic to a given viewpoint in some sort of retarded duel.

It basically pointless. You dont think Israel should exist.
I do. It really is quite simple.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
israelis are the first to knock you down to get on the bus and then the first to help you up. there's no such thing as a lineup. people leave their kids with total strangers while they run into a store. people park their cars on medians and have a barbecue in heavy traffic. the speed limit is a recommendation. anyone in the country is welcome in anyone else's house for friday night dinner. everyone has at least one bumper sticker on their car with some slogan. business is conducted in t-shirts and jeans. the biggest crime is letting someone take advantage of you. the second biggest crime in israel is taking yourself too seriously cause nobody will let you.

[/ QUOTE ]

The description above by the resident Betar freak is accurate.

I would also point out something that concurs with what the RBF says about Israeli disdain for pomp and circumstance AND the war-footing attitude that characterizes all aspects of Israeli life. Here's the ceremony of changing the Commander of the Israel armed forces (IDF), in full detail: The new man arrives by a chauffeur-driven car to HQ, steps out, salutes the solders presenting arms, salutes the outgoing chief, the outgoing chief salutes back, enters his own car and drives off, the new man enters the building and gets to work. End of ceremony - clock it at under two minutes.

It is important, however, to note that the siege mentality that pervades everyday Israeli life (for decades) makes for a population with hypertension, various psychological problems, problems of the digestive system and other symptoms of high stress that are way above the average in the area or even western Europe.

The price of success.

[Cyrus]

"I dont even know what you are really saying."

Don't waste my time with things I already know.

"You dont think Israel should exist. I do. It really is quite simple."

On the contrary, I believe firmly in the "existence" of Israel. This does not make me an automatic sympathizer with everything that Israel does! (Just as my belief that, as George Steiner wrote, "Hitler begat Israel", does not make me a Nazi.)

But the policies advocated by Zzzabotinsky, who, far from being an "obscure Zionist figure", has informed pretty much all of Israeli official policy, are a throwback to the epoch where nationalism was king.

It is precisely that epoch that caused the Jews the most suffering. Now the Jews want to have their own epoch of triumphant nationalism. To put it very mildly, they have, in that quest, won the land and lost their soul. (The land... A random geological formation. The holy land... An earthquake could gobble up tomorrow the Wall and all the Mosques. Oh woe. What would we all do with out lives then?)

I have said it before and I will say it again. The Jews have carried a lot of baggage for the rest of humanity and some of their brethren have advanced out knowledge in significant ways. (Hell, it was Jews that upended long-held and dearly beloved notions about Family, Economy and Time! Our life has irrevocably changed because of Sigmund, Karl and Albert. How could one not simply admire the Jews?)

This colossal moral credit had been squandered through the treatment of the indigenous people (more backward, less smart, yes, all those things, if you like). One would have expected the Jews to show moral supremacy but they dropped the torch which lit humanity for eons, and is now held by nobody.

The anachronism that is Israel started off badly. And went on from great to greater injustices. Someone should step in and start correcting things. (Umm, that can only be George Bush's America? Oh well.)

[elscorcho768]

I don't think its a bad thing that people are supposedly overreacting to this news. Given the history of the Jews, can anyone truly criticize their reaction? If there is a lot of criticism against it andnothing more comes of this and, than no big deal. But if people are silent while thig goes on and something much worse spawns from this, than what will we have to say for ourselves?

Also, thank you to Dead for this statement.

"I will let others elaborate as to the reasons why the Russians signing this were correct in doing so. They acted because Jewish groups have by and large been hijacked by genocidal Zionist elements."

Now anytime you make another idiotic argument, instead of people having to debate you and waste everyone's time, we all can refer to this statement and realize you're not worth it.

[Gamblor]

Zabotinsky

The letter is a Yud. In english, a Y.

Yabotinsky.

I'll gleefully ignore most of the rest of your crap.

Israel is guilty of near-genocidal policies.

There's lots of work to do integrating Israeli-Arabs into Israeli society, but this is the sickest joke I've ever read.

Oh, and they also bomb the [censored] out of us.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, thank you to Dead for this statement.
"I will let others elaborate as to the reasons why the Russians signing this were correct in doing so. They acted because Jewish groups have by and large been hijacked by genocidal Zionist elements."

Now anytime you make another idiotic argument, instead of people having to debate you and waste everyone's time, we all can refer to this statement and realize you're not worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a fool.

I copied it from Zaxx's post:

"Next we need Dead to get on this thread, announce he is indeed Jewish, then proceed to enumerate the reasons why the Russians signing this rag were correct in acting bc Jewish groups have by and large been hijacked by Genocidal Zionist elements."

[elscorcho768]

You are right, i apologize. You're still a moron though.

[Dead]

Ty to the Israeli neocon.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
There's lots of work to do integrating Israeli-Arabs into Israeli society

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure thats something many Israeli Arabs seek.

Im also not sure if thats desirable to non-Arab citizens.

I never claimed Israel was a US style democracy in the model of Western Europe or the Canada, be sure not to make this mistake yourself.

For instance there are structural differences between Nigerian "Democracy" and Western style ones, and given the history and wide divisions in Nigerian society this is perfectly appropriate.