Folding KK pre flop ... Party 20+2 sit'n'go

[stevetee]

Can I fold KK here ? Should I ?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP (t480)</font>
<font color="#C00000">CO (t1180)</font>
Button (t1700)
SB (t940)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1540)</font>
UTG (t2160)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to t480 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t1180 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t980.

Flop: (t2940) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2940) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t2940) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2940
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: t1540 (t1540), between MP, CO and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by CO (t1540).</font>
<font color="#009B00">Pot 2: t1400 (t1400), between CO and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by CO (t1400).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kd Kc (two pair, aces and kings).
MP has Qd Tc (two pair, aces and tens).
CO has Jc Ah (full house, aces full of eights).
Outcome: CO wins t2940. </font>

[Maulik]

I odn't see why not, you've got action and hopefully someone will find themselves out of the tournament. Additionally, any ace that falls more likely than not is the end or your chips.

[stevetee]

[ QUOTE ]
I odn't see why not, you've got action and hopefully someone will find themselves out of the tournament. Additionally, any ace that falls more likely than not is the end or your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I was 4-table'ing and hit this so quick...could have kicked myself. But, even afterwards, still wasn't 100% sure if the fold would have been correct.

[Unparagoned]

Don't fold KK preflop...

[BradleyT]

Can I?
You can do anything you put your mind to.

Should I?
Um, no.

If you fold and let them play, how do you think that benefits you to getting into the money? If CO wins there's still 5 players left. If MP wins there's still 6 players left. When you play and win you're going to be chipleader with 4 players left.

[EdgePort]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold KK preflop...

[/ QUOTE ]

[pokerlaw]

Don't fold that here...besides, you were a favorite before the flop anyway.

[raptor517]

umm, why would you even WANT to fold here? 3uo

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
I odn't see why not, you've got action and hopefully someone will find themselves out of the tournament. Additionally, any ace that falls more likely than not is the end or your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

This weak tight thinking is even worse thatn your original question.

If someone has an A - that means they only have 3 outs, if they both have A's they only have 2 outs.

Look at what happened when the money went in - you made the right play, just didn't work out

[microbet]

If you fold, there will still be at least 5 players left and you might be in 4th place.

Can you fold? No.

[SuitedSixes]

You don't fold here.

CO's push does not indicate great strength in this situation. He is hoping to shut everyone else out to isolate with the short stack, effectively only risking 480 of his own chips. He is counting on the short stack having a pretty wide range at this point, which a hand like AJ is strong against. More times than not, I would think at this point, you are up against two hands with an ace, leaving either of them with two outs. This is an easy call.

The play to be cautious of here, is the player who just calls the all-in or min-raises, this is an indication of someone who is hoping that by showing weakness, he can trap another caller.

[microbet]

This thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=203 8636&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=JJ&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit= 25&amp;Main=2037229&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=244 99&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;ol dertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2038636) got into a case where folding KK was a close call. The majority of people, I think, were for a call with KK, but it was not an easy call. This one is. The discussion is later on in the thread, but it is all worth a look.

[stevetee]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=203 8636&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=JJ&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit= 25&amp;Main=2037229&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=244 99&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;ol dertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2038636) got into a case where folding KK was a close call. The majority of people, I think, were for a call with KK, but it was not an easy call. This one is. The discussion is later on in the thread, but it is all worth a look.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for all comments so far. I actually read the majority of that thread a few days back. What concerned me here was the fact that I would be 60/40 against the field to win the hand. Although really I'm only tackling the CO player for ALL my chips. Also, I'm not in a terrible position if I did decide to fold. I guess when I look at it in the way that "had" the MP folded, "then" CO pushed, yes, I know I'm calling. It was the 3 way thing that bugged me more.

[microbet]

Yeah, 40 percent chance of losing doesn't sound that great, but even if they other guy had you covered too, it would be a good call.

In this case, put a dollar value on having 1340 chips here with 5 or 6 players remaining or having 3200 chips with 4 players remaining (ICM, unless you have a better method). 60% of one will be a lot more than 100% of the other.

[apd138]

This would probably have been the worst preflop fold of your life and im not kidding.

[SuitedSixes]

Micro is right. Your 60/40 concern is to knock out two players and become Huge Stack, and I would take that all day. You were over 70/30 against the only player who could have done damage to your stack.

I go back to my original assertion. KK is great against a short stack, and KK is great against a guy who thinks he's probably good against a short stack.

Would you have folded if the cards were exposed to you?

[stevetee]

[ QUOTE ]
Micro is right. Your 60/40 concern is to knock out two players and become Huge Stack, and I would take that all day. You were over 70/30 against the only player who could have done damage to your stack.

I go back to my original assertion. KK is great against a short stack, and KK is great against a guy who thinks he's probably good against a short stack.

Would you have folded if the cards were exposed to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wouldn't. And I like that take on it. That, combined with microbets numbers make sense. Has cleared my thinking.
Thanks

[willie]

i couldn't believe the first response to this thread.

no you don't fold here, you're ahead. crissakes almighty you probably shouldn't be folding kk almost EVER save a few situations. And this clearly is not one of those situations.

clear insta call.

[Apathy]

Never fold KK preflop online unless you would also fold AA, end of story.

[wdcbooks]

Many of these huge laydown questions seem to presume that these are hands we get dealt all the time. The thinking seems to be 'go ahead and fold KK, and I'll just wait until I get it again'. Frankly that is nonsense.

To win you have to get the most from the few big hands you are going to get. If that means you feel a bit queasy when you have two other all ins in front of you, you just have to suck it up and put the money in. You will be the favorite in a vast majority of cases.

The only reason this is ever a question is the human tendency to forget the favorable outcomes. You just don't see posts asking, 'I called an all in with KK and the other two showed AJ and QJ. Even though I tripled up, did I do the right thing?'.

I may be biased because I don't make big laydowns in single table tournaments very often. Your opponents are not usually playing at a very high level and they often overvalue their cards. Even when they show you AA, you know it is likely they would have made the same play with AT.

[UttBuggly]

I'm gonna jump in here and ask a similar question BUT for 44. I was playing in a WSOP qualifier tournament at Harrah's last weekend. We started with 5000 chips, blinds 50-100. When the blinds hit 200-400, I was UTG with about 4600 and got 44. I debated fishing for a set, but felt like that my position was bad. There were some aggressive folks at the table and 7 players yet to act. I dumped the pair. Of course, the flop was 4-7-4. Two of my friends were there and split on the question. I say the play was sound as at least one player would have raised and I would have had to put 20% or more of my chips at risk with a weak pair.

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna jump in here and ask a similar question BUT for 44. I was playing in a WSOP qualifier tournament at Harrah's last weekend. We started with 5000 chips, blinds 50-100. When the blinds hit 200-400, I was UTG with about 4600 and got 44. I debated fishing for a set, but felt like that my position was bad. There were some aggressive folks at the table and 7 players yet to act. I dumped the pair. Of course, the flop was 4-7-4. Two of my friends were there and split on the question. I say the play was sound as at least one player would have raised and I would have had to put 20% or more of my chips at risk with a weak pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold 44 in the situation you just described every time without giving it any thought.

[pokerlaw]

Fold those 4s everytime. Also, start discounting the advice of the friend who told you not to muck them.

[UttBuggly]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold those 4s everytime. Also, start discounting the advice of the friend who told you not to muck them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, him. He played all weekend and lost $500. I got 3rd in the WSOP tourney and 3rd in a $10 cash tourney and had a nice profit for the weekend.

Yeah, I'll stick with my game. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
I odn't see why not, you've got action and hopefully someone will find themselves out of the tournament. Additionally, any ace that falls more likely than not is the end or your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is not good.

[humanoid]

KK pre flop......Errrr dream about these hands on any online poker site......Dont care I AM NOT GOING To lay em down......I TAKE MY CHANCES....THANK YOU VERY MUCH......ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LAY DOWN KK PRE FLOP ONLINE&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Play bridge.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
KK pre flop......Errrr dream about these hands on any online poker site......Dont care I AM NOT GOING To lay em down......I TAKE MY CHANCES....THANK YOU VERY MUCH......ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LAY DOWN KK PRE FLOP ONLINE&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Play bridge.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about offline?

[valenzuela]

yes you can fold kings, you can call, fold or go all-in according to NLHE rules, and no you shouldnt fold.

[Brophy]

you played that fine, they just got lucky.......