Potential $ at the Party $55 SNGs

[minwoo]

Hi everyone,
I've been 4 tabling at the $33's for a run of about 400 SNGs and have been doing fairly well. I have about a $3k bankroll now and would like to jump up to the $55 level. I am just curious as to what kind of money can be made at that level. For those of you who play at the $55 level, how many SNG's do you play in a week or month's frame and how much proft($) are you making?

[Irieguy]

I don't play them anymore, but I've played about 600 in the last few months, 4-8 tabling with a 17% ROI.

A better player could probably hit 20%. I would say that if you can beat the $33's for more than 12% ROI, you will likely be able to beat the $55's.

Irieguy

[kyro]

you don't happen to be vtminwoo do you?

i'm running around 17% after only 250 SNGs, but I think that might be a bit higher than my true ROI. I was amazed to find that the play at the 50s wasn't that much better than the 33s. irieguy is right, if you can beat the 33s for 12%, you should beat the 55s easily.

[MSUcougar]

I played about 600 $30s with a ROI of 37% playing 2-3 at a time...

Moved up to the $50s and so far I have a 13% ROI over 450 tourneys playing 4 at a time...

Pretty small sample size but I've found the $50s to be tougher to beat... 4 tabling might have a small effect on that as well, who knows...

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't happen to be vtminwoo do you?

i'm running around 17% after only 250 SNGs, but I think that might be a bit higher than my true ROI. I was amazed to find that the play at the 50s wasn't that much better than the 33s. irieguy is right, if you can beat the 33s for 12%, you should beat the 55s easily.

[/ QUOTE ]


The 55's are decent, yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's easy money there. Most of my SNG's have been at that level and it's always a struggle. I've noticed a lot of new strong, aggressive players too lately that are 2-4 tabling FWIW. As far as ROI is concerned, I'm beating them for a good amount but I won't quote any figures. GL.

[kyro]

i'd wager a guess that 3-4 of the people at any given table are complete morons. They would lose at the 11s if they tried them. Of the other 5-6, maybe 2-3 have a clue but aren't completely there and the other 3 are decent.

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd wager a guess that 3-4 of the people at any given table are complete morons. They would lose at the 11s if they tried them. Of the other 5-6, maybe 2-3 have a clue but aren't completely there and the other 3 are decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense or anything but is this info from the 250 SNG's you mentioned above? If so, you'll notice some big changes soon.

Just wondering but, have we played together? My SN is almost the same as this username. If not, say hi sometime if you see me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[minwoo]

Yep I am VTminwoo. I guess my SNG count has significantly increased since a player on here actualy recognizes my name.

It seems clear from the responses that there is a significant decrease in ROI from the $33 to the $55.

For most of you, is it worth the sacrifice of a better ROI at $33 to move up to the $55s for a lower ROI? In other words: In spite of the lower ROI, does moving up result in a significantly higher profit?

I am terrified of moving up to the $55s and 4-tabling...$220 per set!

What kind of a downswing in terms of the # of buy-ins is expected at $55 level?

Would $3.5k bankroll(63x buy-ins) be enough to handle it, 4-tabling?

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
I am terrified of moving up to the $55s and 4-tabling...$220 per set!


[/ QUOTE ]

Why not play a set with 2x50$ and 2x30$? Or maybee even start with 1x50$ and 3x30$.

[apd138]

Not to hijack this thread but how do you feel the $22's compare to the 33's?

[Peter Chabot]

[ QUOTE ]
is it worth the sacrifice of a better ROI at $33 to move up to the $55s for a lower ROI? In other words: In spite of the lower ROI, does moving up result in a significantly higher profit?

[/ QUOTE ]

i personally think that at the shorter-stack sites, the biggest difference in player quality is between the 33s and 55s. 5.50,11,22 play roughly the same, then there's a gap up to 33, then a bigger gap up to 55. after that is a different story... some of the earlier posts from good players in this thread verify the difference from the 33 and the 55.

as for you quote above - you just have to guesstimate what the change in your ROI will be. 20%ROI at 33 is $6.60/SnG, whereas 12%ROI at 55 is $6.60/SnG. i.o.w, figure your ROI would have to be > 60% of your ROI at 33, since 33=60%*55.

this of course assumes you could play the same amount per hour at each level, which may not be accurate. it also assumes that multi-tabling has equivalent effects on your ROI at each level, which may also not be entirely accurate.

[raptor517]

ok, well, i think that you can make a killing at the 55s. if you 8 table, you can get in around 2k a month playing full time. figure 20k a year with time off and stuff like that. even a 10% roi player over 20k will make 6 figures. thats not even counting rakeback.

as far as beating the 55s, lifetime im somewhere around 16%. ive played maybe 4k 55s, and they dont seem to be getting too much tougher.

as for playing in a week or months time, i would say i average like 400 a week when im playing somewhat hard, and around 550 when im hitting it REALLY hard. average month is above 1500, so im making enough to pay rent. 3uo

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi everyone,
I've been 4 tabling at the $33's for a run of about 400 SNGs and have been doing fairly well. I have about a $3k bankroll now and would like to jump up to the $55 level. I am just curious as to what kind of money can be made at that level. For those of you who play at the $55 level, how many SNG's do you play in a week or month's frame and how much proft($) are you making?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 1800 games of $55 since January. I was making killing on January with 23% ROI, then reality sets in Febuary where it is leveled off overall down to 13%. At those time I was playing 4 tables. I had run where I was in the money 10 straight times and I also have couple runs where I was not in the money about 20 straight times. Out of my 2 longest losing streaks, I managed to be 4th or 5th place more than half of time. Bad beats will happen, and they happens in streak somtimes. I have lost AA to KK 4 times straight in STT durring those run.

My opinion is $3K bankroll is not sufficient to handle the fluctation if you go 4 tables for 8 hours and 5 days a week. It's best to have full array of repertoir in your games. I am descent at ring game $5/$10 and sometimes $10/$20. Find a balance. If you want to move up. Move Slowly, 1 table at a time to $55. If you play STT long enough, you will have losing streaks of 12+ games and nothing goes right, AKs lose to 24s etc.

When you play good poker, you can not let money affect your play and judgements. Each game is only a unit of your investment. If you high fluctation keeps you up on your seat when playing. Stay away! /images/graemlins/frown.gif Play your best poker in your comfort zone. And yes, you want to move up. Eventually to $215, but just overnight. Slowly phase in is my 2 cents of opinion.

[NeoGeo]

Btw, I have not play a game of $55 since end of Feb. I'm thinking of trying it again this month. So you might see me there /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
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Easy push, terrible call.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree this is an easy push. But terrible call by BB? Obviously BB knows Hero is pushing with most hands. His A7 is going to be a favorite most of the time. If he wins this hand he's just about a lock to money and probably take at least 2nd. I call this as BB.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Terrible Push. Good call!

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is your advice, i dont think there is any way you had a 23% roi over even 200 games. 3uo

[apd138]

[ QUOTE ]
average month is above 1500, so im making enough to pay rent. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ] Your also making the understatement of the year.

[minwoo]

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, you want to move up. Eventually to $215...

[/ QUOTE ]

As you move up, you will encounter better players, resulting in the lower ROI/ITM. If you are playing solely for $ profit, would you still want to move up? Of course, I would like nothing better than to be playing at $215 level but that is only because playing at that level would prove to myself and maybe others that I am a competent player (or maybe a pro!) capable of playing and handling the $215 level. In terms of money to be made, I think it will be harder to make a decent profit.

So, what is the reasoning behind "moving up" when you have a sufficient bankroll when it will just result in lower ROI and ITM?

[kyro]

don't flatter yourself. i'm the guy that told you my sister was going there next year and it had been one of the schools i had looked at /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. Anyways, I think it was a MTT.

63 buy-ins should be enough if you're a winning player. Just be prepared for streaks. I've had OOM streaks of 8 and 19/21. My first 100 SNGs I broke even, and I had a 70 tournament streak where I had a -30% ROI. And I'm also well aware that those kinds of streaks are nothing compared to someone who has played >1000 SNGs.

There are going to be days you feel like the best player in the world. And days you question if you're even a winner. But if you're a winner at the 33s, I'm just not that impressed with the play at the 55s to think that you couldn't be a winner there. Best of luck to you.

[minwoo]

Oh right, I remember you. Party kept freezing on me that day. I busted shortly after I saw your question on the text box. I was too pissed at Party so I left without responding. Sorry about that. Tech is a great school. Your sister will love it? What is her major?

Also here is some Tech news about Poker Room ran by one of my friends being busted by police:
http://www.americanpoker.com/managearticle.asp?C=6&A=10074&S=17

[NeoGeo]

Let's not argue whether you think I can play STT or not. The fact is Hero has the chip lead, he doesn't need risk doubling 2nd chip leader with Q5o rags. I will attack 3rd chip lead since 4th place guy only has 2 BB to go and both of them are most conscious in survival mode. If I go attack 2nd chip leader, all-in is too suspicious to invite A7o call.


I stand by my advice.


Whether or not you agree or not, I'm not the only one! And stick this debate to its proper thread.

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And yes, you want to move up. Eventually to $215...

[/ QUOTE ]

As you move up, you will encounter better players, resulting in the lower ROI/ITM. If you are playing solely for $ profit, would you still want to move up? Of course, I would like nothing better than to be playing at $215 level but that is only because playing at that level would prove to myself and maybe others that I am a competent player (or maybe a pro!) capable of playing and handling the $215 level. In terms of money to be made, I think it will be harder to make a decent profit.

So, what is the reasoning behind "moving up" when you have a sufficient bankroll when it will just result in lower ROI and ITM?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good attitude!
Lower ROI, but still more efficient. A guy I know who's making avg $3K a day playing $215 4 tables. Yes, lower ROI, but you get prestige of being a tournament board leader and less time grinding.

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]

if this is your advice, i dont think there is any way you had a 23% roi over even 200 games. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many tournament style play, find one suits yourself. And for the months I play, I was amongst top 15 on tournament leader board. For the purpose of anonymity, I am not going to give my handle so people can mark me.

[steeser]

One critical detail is that the starting chip stacks are 1000 at the 50 level, as opposed to 800 in the 30's and below. This gives you that much more play, and presumably should favor skilled play a bit more.

(I believe this is the level, it's been a while since I made that transition)

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]
One critical detail is that the starting chip stacks are 1000 at the 50 level, as opposed to 800 in the 30's and below. This gives you that much more play, and presumably should favor skilled play a bit more.

(I believe this is the level, it's been a while since I made that transition)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, more starting multiples of big blind translate to higher chip disparity, more manipulation of chip stack and further level of play. This is why I prefer $55 over $33 despite slightly tougher game.

[Mr_J]

"average month is above 1500, so im making enough to pay rent. 3uo"

Yeh that's 4k a week.

[minwoo]

Is it possible to make the tournament leader board by playing $50 SNGs? About how many would you have to play with what kind of ROI?

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And yes, you want to move up. Eventually to $215...

[/ QUOTE ]

As you move up, you will encounter better players, resulting in the lower ROI/ITM. If you are playing solely for $ profit, would you still want to move up? Of course, I would like nothing better than to be playing at $215 level but that is only because playing at that level would prove to myself and maybe others that I am a competent player (or maybe a pro!) capable of playing and handling the $215 level. In terms of money to be made, I think it will be harder to make a decent profit.

So, what is the reasoning behind "moving up" when you have a sufficient bankroll when it will just result in lower ROI and ITM?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good attitude!
Lower ROI, but still more efficient. A guy I know who's making avg $3K a day playing $215 4 tables. Yes, lower ROI, but you get prestige of being a tournament board leader and less time grinding.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? I have a really hard time believing this unless he's been incredibly lucky or plays a gazillion SNG's a day.

[DonButtons]

3k a day, lol...

I mean, Im certain you can make 3k a day, but 24/7, thats impossible...thats a lil' over 1 million a year hahaha...

and im pretty sure you can make the leaderboard playing 50s, just got to play a ton of them, look at zebraass, I think he solely plays the 50s, and he's up there...

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
3k a day, lol...

I mean, Im certain you can make 3k a day, but 24/7, thats impossible...thats a lil' over 1 million a year hahaha...

and im pretty sure you can make the leaderboard playing 50s, just got to play a ton of them, look at zebraass, I think he solely plays the 50s, and he's up there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Don, thanks for the confirmation since I had a really hard time believing the 3k/day figure. Thought it would be a good day but certainly not an "average" day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Not sure which leaderboard you're referring to but the Empire leaderboard is easy as hell to get on playing the 50's and the Party is a bit harder, but indeed possible. The step 5 players totally own the Party one so it's more of a challenge.

Edit: Just checked out the Party leaderboard and wow there's a lot of 50's players there. Might not be all that hard for a dedicated 4-tabler. Where'd all the step 5 players go?

[Scuba Chuck]

Raptor, how many tables are you averaging per hour 8 tabling?

I 4 table, and I'm discovering that I avg about 5.3 SNGs per hour (it's almost uncanny how consistent this is for me.) That's 47 hours a week 50 weeks a year to get 12,000+ SNGs in (or essentially 1,000 SNGs) a week.

My question is, are you averaging 10.6 SNGs an hour?

[Mr_J]

"My question is, are you averaging 10.6 SNGs an hour?"

5.6 is fine for just playing in sets, but definately low if you always have 4 running, so I'm guessing you only play sets. How does he average so many?? He always has 8 running, I also think his average is about 12???

When I was 4tabling I was getting around 6.5 an hour.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

My question is, are you averaging 10.6 SNGs an hour?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's averaging quite a bit more than 10.6. Remember, he plays them continuously and doesn't take breaks.

Also, just wait until he's 12 tabling them, /images/graemlins/wink.gif. We'll be seeing 'I played 6k STTs this month' posts...

Yugoslav

[raptor517]

well, i keep 8 running continuously, so i get in around 13 or 14 per hour. im too money hungry right now to take breaks, so i just kinda keep on chuggin. in like 2 days my setup should arrive and i figure i could almost get in 20 per hour if i run them continuously /images/graemlins/wink.gif 3uo

[raptor517]

ok, heres my gorilla math for 3k a day. 4 tabling that would be nigh impossible. i THINK that eventually, i should be able to hit that 12 tabling. if i work at it, i believe that i could MAYBE hit a 10% roi. with an average of 28% rakeback, lets assume i play 16 tables per hour.

thats 67.20 in rakeback per hour. with my 10% roi, i could be making 344 per hour. soooo, about 411.20 per hour. therefore, i need only to play 7.3 hours per day to hit 3k a day. easy enough right? bwahahahaha

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i keep 8 running continuously, so i get in around 13 or 14 per hour. im too money hungry right now to take breaks, so i just kinda keep on chuggin. in like 2 days my setup should arrive and i figure i could almost get in 20 per hour if i run them continuously /images/graemlins/wink.gif 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

what level do you plan on playing in with the new setup?

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i keep 8 running continuously, so i get in around 13 or 14 per hour. im too money hungry right now to take breaks, so i just kinda keep on chuggin. in like 2 days my setup should arrive and i figure i could almost get in 20 per hour if i run them continuously 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you use a program to enter new games? I would guess montioring the lobby for open games, etc. could get cumbersome when playing > 8 tables (I struggled with this 8-tabling).

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And yes, you want to move up. Eventually to $215...

[/ QUOTE ]

As you move up, you will encounter better players, resulting in the lower ROI/ITM. If you are playing solely for $ profit, would you still want to move up? Of course, I would like nothing better than to be playing at $215 level but that is only because playing at that level would prove to myself and maybe others that I am a competent player (or maybe a pro!) capable of playing and handling the $215 level. In terms of money to be made, I think it will be harder to make a decent profit.

So, what is the reasoning behind "moving up" when you have a sufficient bankroll when it will just result in lower ROI and ITM?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good attitude!
Lower ROI, but still more efficient. A guy I know who's making avg $3K a day playing $215 4 tables. Yes, lower ROI, but you get prestige of being a tournament board leader and less time grinding.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? I have a really hard time believing this unless he's been incredibly lucky or plays a gazillion SNG's a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes 3K is high range, low range is 2K. And I failed to mentioned it's 4 tables of 200+15 and 3/60 ring games.

Do the math!

[raptor517]

the day i get my new monitors in, ill be 12 tabling the 55s. probably do that for a few days, then jump back up to the 109s. yesterday i played the 215s with minor success, so maybe eventually ill 12 table those..

[raptor517]

nah, i dont use a proggy for joining games. its never been a problem for me to multitask, and i can easily record my results in aleos spreadsheet, join a new game, and keep the other 7 sngs running smoothly while doing the laundry. i also like to exercise some seat selection at the 109s. if i recognize a player who doesnt steal the blinds, i can sneak into their left. or if i see a somewhat solid player thats tight in the BB, i can sit to their right and have free steals. 3uo

[Mr_J]

With 10% ROI, 28% rakeback you'd need to play 224 $109s a day to make $3k. That 14 hrs of work, not 7 /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[raptor517]

that is very true.. if i was talking about the 109s. the discussion was on making 3k playing the 215s. that what my math was based on. 3uo

[Mr_J]

"he discussion was on making 3k playing the 215s."

Ah k. 7hrs?? Geez man I don't wanna work that, even if it was for 3k a day. I might (make that a definate would) do it for a couple of months to build up my sports BR. Then I quit poker, since it'd be costing me money (make more just focusing on sports).

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i keep 8 running continuously, so i get in around 13 or 14 per hour. im too money hungry right now to take breaks, so i just kinda keep on chuggin. in like 2 days my setup should arrive and i figure i could almost get in 20 per hour if i run them continuously /images/graemlins/wink.gif 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

raptor

is this 8 tabling 50+5?

28% rakeback = $18/hr (if 13 tables/hr)

10% roi @ 13tables/hr = ~$70/hr

= ~90/hr 8 tabling 50+5?????

[raptor517]

yea thats pretty close, i do better than 10% at the 55s tho /images/graemlins/wink.gif but yea thats pretty much it. 3uo

[minwoo]

Raptor,
What kind of bankroll will you be working with when you are 12-tabling the $55's?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Raptor,
What kind of bankroll will you be working with when you are 12-tabling the $55's?

[/ QUOTE ]

The dude doesn't spend his $$ (except on ill-advised Pai Gow binges) so it doesn't really matter. He could probably 12 table the 215s.....I bet he would end up barely ahead if taking into account rakeback (after practicing 12 tabling for a while anyway).

That being said, he really doesn't need much more than whatever he normally would have for the $55s. If that was what I was doing 40 hours a week I'd like to have @ least 5k in my account more for psychological reasons than anything else.

Yugoslav
Bwahahahahah!

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raptor,
What kind of bankroll will you be working with when you are 12-tabling the $55's?

[/ QUOTE ]

The dude doesn't spend his $$ (except on ill-advised Pai Gow binges) so it doesn't really matter. He could probably 12 table the 215s.....I bet he would end up barely ahead if taking into account rakeback (after practicing 12 tabling for a while anyway).

That being said, he really doesn't need much more than whatever he normally would have for the $55s. If that was what I was doing 40 hours a week I'd like to have @ least 5k in my account more for psychological reasons than anything else.

Yugoslav
Bwahahahahah!

[/ QUOTE ]

Man this Pai Gow binge is haunting me even until now. I'm counting and now 4, yes *4* people mentioned it to me in chat in some SNG. Reveal yourselves people)!(@ /images/graemlins/grin.gif

PM me or something! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Man this Pai Gow binge is haunting me even until now. I'm counting and now 4, yes *4* people mentioned it to me in chat in some SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

They should chat about how sweet your car is. It's way sweeter than mine, although I'm not sure I care that much, /images/graemlins/confused.gif, I guess cards aren't my thing.

Yeah, the only thing worse than dropping that much cash at Pai Gow is having someone trip report it and then continuously mention it every day for the rest of your life.

Yugoslav
Just doin' his job, /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[raptor517]

whats a bankroll? ok, well, since my living expenses are near nothing since i have a roomate and live in a tiny apartment, my bankroll is pretty much everything i have. everything i have is more than enough to 12 table the 215s, buuuut, my game needs quite a bit of work before i do that. for the 55s, if you are a hardcore multitabler, you should be comfortable on 5k at the 55s. that should be more than enough.

after playing for only a couple weeks, you bankroll should be doubled though, so bankroll doesnt mean a whole lot to me in these sngs. 3uo

[Mr_J]

"o bankroll doesnt mean a whole lot to me in these sngs. 3uo"

Why should it??? Any serious 6-8 tabler can make enough in a week to replace their BR. Hell, when a very solid player can make 2k a week at the $11s, BR should never be much of an issue (unless you're like me and just naturally unlucky /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
"o bankroll doesnt mean a whole lot to me in these sngs. 3uo"

Why should it??? Any serious 6-8 tabler can make enough in a week to replace their BR. Hell, when a very solid player can make 2k a week at the $11s, BR should never be much of an issue (unless you're like me and just naturally unlucky /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

$2k/week profit at $11 SnGs? in How many hours???

[raptor517]

entirely too many.. 8 tabling itd be possible for sure though, but boring as hell, and foolish cuz you could easily jump up in limit and make more than double that. 3uo

[Mr_J]

40% ROI 8tabling 5hrs a day...obviously most people can't hit this (40%ROI), but it doesn't take long to rebuild as long as you're a good multitabler.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]

and im pretty sure you can make the leaderboard playing 50s, just got to play a ton of them, look at zebraass, I think he solely plays the 50s, and he's up there...

[/ QUOTE ]

actually it's not that hard to make the Party leaderboard 4-tabling the $20s. thing is the points you get for winning don't increase that much as the buyin increases. it's more a function of field size.

[raptor517]

i wonder.. if i could make the top 10 on BOTH leaderboards.. party and empire. empire is easy, but party.. hmmm.. challenge time perhaps? holla /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder.. if i could make the top 10 on BOTH leaderboards.. party and empire. empire is easy, but party.. hmmm.. challenge time perhaps? holla /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna come top 5 on empire in may, I already decided /images/graemlins/grin.gif...now maybe I could start 8 tabling....

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
40% ROI 8tabling 5hrs a day...obviously most people can't hit this (40%ROI), but it doesn't take long to rebuild as long as you're a good multitabler.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.. 40% roi at 10+1 8 tabling?

why not move up to 20+2?

[raptor517]

oh reaaaaaallllyyyy apathy. so u think yer gonna hit the top 5 in may eh. welll.. it looks like we have a monthlong challenge brewing. and i do love my challenges.. holla