40-80 Shorthanded

[bruce]

40-80 five handed game. Two live ones. My image isn't rather high, having had two big
hands cracked when this hand occurred about 10 minutes later. I am in the cutoff when
I open raise with K8s and the button (live one ) calls along with both blinds. The flop comes
Qs 9s 4c. I have a flush draw with an overcard. I bet the button calls and both blinds fold.
Turn brings 2h. I bet and my opponent calls. The river brings a Jc. I bet and my opponent
calls. He turnsover 94s and drags the chips. Comments appreciated.

Bruce

[skp]

Bad luck but what's up with the button never raising once after having flopped two pairs?

I see nothing wrong with your play.

[Boris]

you got very lucky. you could've very easily been raised on the turn and then had a king come on the river so you pay off one more bet.

You might want to think about playing more weak-tightish until you get your momentum back.

live ones know how to raise with flush draws, so you're wasting a bet on the river

When your getting beaten up you have to tighten up.....Even though shorthanded i don't like raising with that preflop.

[Trefo]

I agree you must tighten up early there when on a losing streak.

[JTG51]

I don't like the river bet. Sometimes you just have to give up. He seems to have something worth calling a river bet. As someone else pointed out, a live one will usually raise with a flush draw.

Although, this guy doesn't sound like a live one. Most rocks I know will raise somewhere with 2 pair, nevermind live one's. Maybe you should reassess your read of this player.

I much prefer a turn check-raise here, but it's OK to bet I suppose. I think the river bet is tough - the only hands he can lay down that you beat are KT, KJ and a big flush draw. I don't know if the odds he has one of these warrants a bet, but it might - you know his play better than I.

[M.B.E.]

Dan -- I don't think you can rule out the live one laying down a small pair on the river. It depends on the psychology. You might assume that if he called you all the way with bottom pair he'll call again on the river, and for some live ones that's true but not all. He might have been thinking something like "I know I'm not ahead, but if I hit my kicker I'll probably be good." Then when he doesn't hit his kicker he folds to a bet.

The fact that there are so many draws on board make this very unlikely. Were the board more ragged, this seems more plausible. In other words - "my calling indicates a draw, yet he bets the river anyway, why?". Of course, it's opponent dependent.

The hands I listed - KJ, KT, other draw with a K or A, may be enough reason to bet alone. I did not do the math, because I am in the dark about how opponent would play them pre or post flop.

I for some reason failed to noice the river J. Now those KJ and KT hands made enough to call a bet, but the board is scary enough that someone may drop a small pair. I am not sure why this J did not register in my brain.

At any rate, I still think a bluff is not too likely to work, but now the opponents play makes sense - you probably don't call a raise on the end unless he's beat, and he was trapping you on the first 2 streets with a safe but not spectacluar hand. Perhaps he also wanted to make sure there was a showdown with it so he could advertise, and thus the slowplay.

[bruce]

Thanks for the replies. I actually posted the hand incorrectly. He had T4s so he flopped
bottom pair hence him not raising on the turn. I think the two most debatable points
are whether I should get involved with the hand to begin with or not and my river bet.
I am not sure if I flushed $80 down the toilet on the end or not. I knew there was no
way I would win with a showdown. I was hoping I could get him to fold a small pair
or even an Ace high on the end. Perhaps in the future when my image is poor I just
might avoid hands like this to begin with. But this is shorthanded and waiting for
big hands preflop is not a sound strategy either. The frustrating thing about this
hand is on the flop I am a small favorite. About five minutes later against the same
player I have ATs and he calls a raise with A7o. I flop top pair with a flush draw and
he spikes a Seven on the turn. Well them are the breaks.

Bruce

[Boris]

Why is raising the turn with a flush draw considered a "live" play? Are you saying that a winning player would not do this?

[JTG51]

No, I'm not saying raising the turn with a flush draw isn't something a winning player would do. I didn't even imply that. Reread my post.

I said that a "live" player would do that. I didn't say anything about who wouldn't. If I said a "live" player would raise AA before the flop, would you take that to mean a winning player wouldn't?

And for that matter, who says a live one is not a winning player? I ddin't say that either.

[Boris]

uhhh yea.

I don't think anyone is going to call with a flush draw here short handed. I agree you are wasting a bet on the river. If anything, I would try to check raise the turn as well hoping he would lay down. If the player is so live, I dunno why he never got a raise in either.