I went for the check-raise and sort of got it...

[elitegimp]

Does this look okay?

My thoughts -- I was against check-raising the flop because I had J high with a 9 kicker... Plus I figured if I hit one of my 6-8 outs, I was in a great position to check-raise MP1 (depending on the action if the third club fell). Anyway, as you can see I nearly whiffed because MP1 checked (luckily, CO came to my rescue).

Is this a standard line, or is it too fancy?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[UncleSalty]

I would check/raise the flop here once you know most of the field is calling. You have a pretty big equity edge against 5 players and you can expect them to call one more after they've called. The flush could certainly be out, but that doesn't mean you don't own a big piece of this pot.

The rest of the hand looks good. I hope you didn't run into a club on the river.

Edit: Actually, you need to bet this turn 100% of the time. Especially after you've check/raised the flop as I recommend.

[CourtJester]

At worst you have 6 outs and even with 7, a bet on the flop would have been appropriate. But since you checked I think that a flop CR would have been ok as the bet came from your left and you really dont want anyone to leave with a pretty decent draw. Lead out the turn because anyone with a flush draw has odds to call your CR anyways.

[BriPlay]

thanks for the post.
i'd prob have bet the flop rather than check..since there's no gaurantee that anyone's gonna bet this kinda ragedy flop (if there was a raise preflop thats different IMO). but since you cheked and got bet into..check raise flop seems like a good way to build the pot.
turn:in either scenario you bet out on turn. you might even get raised by 2 pr since your str8 is well disguised
Brian

[FishHooks]

yea no way you try to check raise this flop, always have someone in mind who you are trying to check raise, just bet at this flop.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this look okay?

My thoughts -- I was against check-raising the flop because I had J high with a 9 kicker... Plus I figured if I hit one of my 6-8 outs, I was in a great position to check-raise MP1 (depending on the action if the third club fell). Anyway, as you can see I nearly whiffed because MP1 checked (luckily, CO came to my rescue).

Is this a standard line, or is it too fancy?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I might have folded preflop, but it's not bad. I don't like to go below T9 unless it's suited.

I think the flop is fine. I don't know why everyone is so thrilled with betting out on this flop. If you had a stronger draw (perhaps an overcard with the OESD, or a stronger one card backdoor flush draw), I would be more in favor of it. Check-raising the flop (once it's bet in early position) is worth considering. It would depend a little bit on how aggressive the table is. If you expect a continuation bet on the turn, calling the flop is fine.

If you catch your straight and miss the flush on the turn, your equity there is much much better than the equity on the flop. Remember that the straight draw is weaker than the flush draw because you will run into players with a flush redraw to beat you.

[Isura]

Let's check hoping someone in late position bets, then raise to blow away 2 or more players while I'm holding the nuts. The turn check-raise is awful. The thought of having the turn checked through makes me sick.

The check-raise on the flop (given the action) is not a bad play. You have enough equity I think to make this +EV (even with the flush draw out). But for god sakes bet out the turn. If you check-raise the flop, and miss, there's still a good chance no one bets the turn (unless maybe the 3rd flush card comes). Most people will not bet the turn after someone check-raises the flop unless they have a very strong hand. So, you can still get a free turn card, or have the odds to call to the river if someone bets.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
yea no way you try to check raise this flop, always have someone in mind who you are trying to check raise, just bet at this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does betting the flop accomplish?

[Malachii]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bet for value? He's got a strong draw. It's about break even if two players call, and +EV if more than two call because he's probably got around 30-35% equity of the pot.

Given that a flush draw isn't going anywhere, would simply calling the turn and going for overcalls be an option? Simply betting out would be best of course, but I don't really like the checkraise. For example, if the player immediately before you bet, would it be correct to raise or simply call and go for the overcalls?

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yea no way you try to check raise this flop, always have someone in mind who you are trying to check raise, just bet at this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does betting the flop accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ Isura. Betting this flop is terrible, and risks blowing away our equity edge for the OESD. Fishooks' logic is applicable to having a vulnerable hand and hoping that a PF aggressor will bet to your right so you can face the field with two cold. In this case, the c/r is used to pad the pot when our equity advantage is greatest. "No way I'm betting this flop".

-Salty

[fluxrad]

I don't understand that.

Let's assume someone in late position bets it and you c/r. You're still facing the field w/ two cold and if they don't have appropriate odds they should fold. Now, if you don't get at least two cold calls doesn't this play basically cost you money?

[FishHooks]

There is no PF agressor so who in the world are you trying to check raise too, someone will bet at this pot with this many callers, so you should bet and someone else will proboly raise and you have a ton of equity in this pot to handle a raise, you dont want to face callers with cold calling 2 bets in this pot.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no PF agressor so who in the world are you trying to check raise too, someone will bet at this pot with this many callers, so you should bet and someone else will proboly raise and you have a ton of equity in this pot to handle a raise, you dont want to face callers with cold calling 2 bets in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's some pretty wishful thinking. There's no reason that someone will "probably" raise and you don't have a "ton" of equity here. You've got more than your fair share against 5 players, but you're in a situation where you can hit your outs and still lose. If you give yourself 7 outs here, your equity is *NOT* the 27.8% you get from doing the straight outs calculation. It's hard to come up with a really clean way of computing the equity loss to when a flush draw comes, so here's an ad hoc way: Assuming you hit your straight card, the flush draw comes in about 20% of the time. We'll also say that you're against a flush draw 20% of the time. That means that 4% of the time you will hit your straight and lose to a flush draw. So your equity is down to 23.8% (and we *STILL* haven't knocked a little bit off for those times you get otherwise outdrawn). This menas that your equity edge against 4 opponents is a whopping 3.8% (minus a little bit). That's not something to go nuts over.

[SlantNGo]

If you had a flush draw, you have 9 clean outs. With an OESD and a two-tone flop, you don't have 8 clean outs... 6 clean, and 2 that get dirtier the more players there are. While with a flush draw, you only need to get 2 callers to make it a break-even bet, with a dirtied OESD, I estimate you'd need somewhere between 3 and 4 callers to make it break-even, i.e. you need 4 out 5 here seeing the flop with you to call to make it a value bet.

Check, with the intention of raising for value if possible. If not possible, just call the flop bet. The "what if the flop is checked through?" argument is counter-intuitive because if the flop was to be checked through, you probably wouldn't have gotten enough callers had you bet.

Now onto the way Hero played. Flop bet + 3 callers, raise the flop. There's 4 others with you, now your raise is for value. This makes the turn an easy bet. Had I taken your flop line, I still think I would have bet the turn. Again, if I had decided to check here, after the CO bet, and the Button calls, then the raise is good. Lead the river.

[Malachii]

Makes sense. Thanks Slant. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[elitegimp]

wow, this is a lot more discussion than I was expecting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here's my thinking on the flop -- I obviously have odds to call the flop bet, so I called it. I don't want to raise because there are _a lot_ of cards I DON'T want to see -- the board pairing, another club, more overcards, etc etc. I figured that by calling the flop, it would be easier for me to get away if an Ugly Card (tm) came (11 clubs, including 2 that gave me a straight, and 9 cards to pair the board, including one of the clubs =&gt; 19 cards that would have made the turn interesting).

On the turn, I gave some thought to betting (in the sense that I was planning my turn play while watching the flop action). Since hitting my straight would imply an undercard to top pair falling, I figured I could count on MP1 betting again. In my mind, there were two possible hands for MP1 to bet with in a field of 6 -- top pair, or a flush draw. If he had clubs, I was hoping he would at least try to play as if he had top pair and would still bet -- I wanted the turn to cost everyone 2 bets, and I wasn't sure that betting out would guarantee a raise behind me. I was fairly surprised that MP1 didn't bet, and it made me wonder if C/Ring the flop was a better play -- it seems like most of the people here think it is, although I was a doubtful before posting. Perhaps I should have cut the post when the action was to me on the flop (the second time) to see what people thought.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bet for value? He's got a strong draw. It's about break even if two players call, and +EV if more than two call because he's probably got around 30-35% equity of the pot.

Given that a flush draw isn't going anywhere, would simply calling the turn and going for overcalls be an option? Simply betting out would be best of course, but I don't really like the checkraise. For example, if the player immediately before you bet, would it be correct to raise or simply call and go for the overcalls?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll answer this question since the rest has been discussed.
[ QUOTE ]
Given that a flush draw isn't going anywhere, would simply calling the turn and going for overcalls be an option?

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalls are not a good idea on the turn for several reasons. For one, as you correctly noted, a flush is NOT going anywhere. This means that a flush draw will always pay 2 or more bets to see the river, so get his money now while you have the best hand. You lose a lot of value by only getting 1 BB from flush draws here in the long run. You also want to extract the maximum from made hands here. Loose players aren't letting go of top pair here. If someone has a flush draw and something like like bottom pair, they'll still proably make a crying call on the river since the pot will be even bigger. Finally, straights are hidden hands , so you can expect to get action on the river, even after raising the turn if someone hits two pair or a set (with no flush).

[FishHooks]

Not to sound like a smart ass, but since you dont have a huge pot equity edge, you figure check raising the flop is best, on a draw? i think you should come out betting you have a smalll edge so use it, someone will bet at this most likely, but I think you betting at this will be much better. You advise checking and calling, but I dont think thats a great play here, espcially if somone late bets and then someone raises to isolate him, then you just hurt your edge. with this many people in the flop you will get callers, and if you do hit your straight, no one will figure you for a straight and might call you down on the turn also. I think its relatively close just betting out adds some deception since your going to call a bet anyways, mise well do it yourself because there is no way this is getting checked through with that many people in the hand. Any thoughts....

[SlantNGo]

We're not checking with the intent to raise... we're checking because a bet might not get enough callers to be a good value bet, so we want to see how many callers we can get.

If you bet and get 2 callers, you've made a poor value bet with your OESD susceptible to flush redraws.

If you check, and there is a bet and call (i.e. a late position bet), you make a good call because the pot is offering you great odds.

If you check, and there is a bet and lots of callers, you make a good value raise because there are many callers.

If you check, and it gets checked through, that's okay because your equity edge wasn't that big to begin with.

Basically what I'm saying is... your draw isn't strong enough to just ram &amp; jam like you would with a flush draw. You have to make sure you're getting good value before you put in a bet or a raise.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to sound like a smart ass, but since you dont have a huge pot equity edge, you figure check raising the flop is best, on a draw? i think you should come out betting you have a smalll edge so use it, someone will bet at this most likely, but I think you betting at this will be much better. You advise checking and calling, but I dont think thats a great play here, espcially if somone late bets and then someone raises to isolate him, then you just hurt your edge. with this many people in the flop you will get callers, and if you do hit your straight, no one will figure you for a straight and might call you down on the turn also. I think its relatively close just betting out adds some deception since your going to call a bet anyways, mise well do it yourself because there is no way this is getting checked through with that many people in the hand. Any thoughts....

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, SNG basically said what I was thinking, so I'll address something else.

Most players at this level aren't going to figure you for a straight. And even if they do, they're not going to confident enough to lay down their decent hands. Or maybe they are confident enough, but they just don't want to do it. I've played lots of flush draws in a very straightforward manner, and I've been called down on those many many times. There's no reason to get tricky if straightforward works well enough.