hand protection/value betting

[Bokonnon]

First hand... no reads /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

What do people think of this bet? Should I tried to check raise pf raiser? Now that he just calls, I'm guesing that either I'm ahead of overcards or he's giving me credit for a 3. Obviously the paired board helps me here.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

pfr gone... Now who's guy? Bigger 8? I assume 99 or TT raises here (if not on flop).

River: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Good card for me, as I tie a bigger 8. Only an overpair (or a very unlikely 3) beats me. The question is, who calls? 77, 66, 44? I'm sure a bet here is right though. Just not that sure...

Obviously reads would be helpful all the way around. The question is, what's the right line with out them?

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[Malachii]

Checkraise flop/bet turn/bet river would be my line.

He's probably going to make a continuation bet on a raggedy board like this if he has AK or something and no one bets on the flop, plus that way you can isolate the PF raiser against the rest of the field.

I think you're ahead the whole way.

[Bokonnon]

You're right... After a little thinking I'm convinced that this is a faily clear check raise to protect on the flop.

[BriPlay]

check raise is an interesting idea.. but you run the risk of it being checked around..pretty common with this type of flop...also..if you do get bet into by pf..you have to really worry bout overpair
personally, id play it just like you did. unfortunately in limit holdem if you're in early position..there's not much you can do but keep hammering at them.

Brian

[Isura]

It could get checked around, but that's a risk hero has to take in order to protect his hand. Betting out into 5 people with a medium top pair and no redraws, this hand is extremely vulnerable. You're giving weak overcards like JT odds to draw when you bet out. Since the pf raiser is on your right, you can force the 2 inbetween to cold-call 2 bets. They might still cold-call, but then they are making a mistake then. Either check-raise a late position better, or check-call a bet on your left.

[BriPlay]

interesting points!
i'll reconsider my approach to these types of hands
Brian

[CourtJester]

CR the flop becuase the be should be coming from MP2, although if he's passive and on over cards he might check and it might get checked through, but I still think CR is right. The rest looks fine.

[FishHooks]

hmm i dont know about check raising, I still don't think that will protect your hand, if you check and the preflop raiser bets, the next guy calls and you raise there will be 17.5 SB in the pot now, anyone calling will get 9:1 odds, I dont think this is a check raise situation. However you will knock out some people but then you created a much bigger pot for the turn and these people will most surely keep around on the big pot on thet turn. I think you just bet on the flop.

[Malachii]

I think a checkraise does a lot to protect his hand. There are no possible gutshots, so the only thing he's worried about are overcards. I don't think the rest of the field can call two bets cold with just overcards, even getting nine to one. For all they know, MP2 has an overpair and Hero (in the BB) has a three. Even if they put MP2 on overcards, they would still have to discount their outs, so calling isn't really an option.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm i dont know about check raising, I still don't think that will protect your hand, if you check and the preflop raiser bets, the next guy calls and you raise there will be 17.5 SB in the pot now, anyone calling will get 9:1 odds, I dont think this is a check raise situation. However you will knock out some people but then you created a much bigger pot for the turn and these people will most surely keep around on the big pot on thet turn. I think you just bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

9/1 is better than(and it'll often be 7.5/1) giving 13.5/1 or better .. you might get some of the weak overcard hands to fold which is great, remember increasing your % of winning by even a small % is good in large pots

[FishHooks]

agreed, but I think you should wait till the turn to raise and see what the turn card is because with that many people you are most likely to get out drawn. If you hold 2 overcards you only need 9.5:1 to call and most of these players dont figure odds and will call. I think you forgo a small edge on the flop to push a bigger on the turn.

[SteveL91]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm i dont know about check raising, I still don't think that will protect your hand, if you check and the preflop raiser bets, the next guy calls and you raise there will be 17.5 SB in the pot now, anyone calling will get 9:1 odds, I dont think this is a check raise situation. However you will knock out some people but then you created a much bigger pot for the turn and these people will most surely keep around on the big pot on thet turn. I think you just bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument against C/R the flop is that it gives odds... but so does just betting the flop. At least the C/R will provide some measure of protection, whereas the flop bet doesn't do anything. Also, I think you're ignoring the psychological impact of forcing the majority of the field to call two cold on that board. Also keep in mind that they likely weren't too thrilled with their hands to begin with if they merely limped and called the raise from MP2.

[FishHooks]

This is a situation where keeping the pot smaller on the flop to push a bigger edge on the turn comes in play, depending on what the turn brings, then that is where you can really push out those draws. Your not folding anything on the flop, so make them fold on the turn with the smaller pot and worse odds.