Too aggressive? (similar to the hot thread about Daliman's hand)

[Bigwig]

$50. Comments please.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1860)
UTG (t1590)
Button (t930)
Hero (t5620)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5620 (All-In)</font>, BB calls t1460 (All-In).

Flop: (t7480) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t7480) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t7480) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t7480

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 7h As (one pair, nines).
Hero has 5c Qh (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins t3760. BB wins t3720. </font>

[johnnybeef]

how many times have you pushed lately, what hands have you exposed when you have pushed, how loose/tight is your opponent....????

[Bigwig]

No read on the opponent, but I had pushed several times recently, without getting a showdown.

[lastchance]

The blinds are t400. You're in SB, you have a huge stack. I think this is an easy push.

[johnnybeef]

id prolly fold.

[Daliman]

Easy push, terrible call.

[curtains]

This is a very clear allin. Your hand is worth moving allin on it's value alone, not to mention there is a shortstack at the table and its the bubble, thus BB will fold a lot of hands. The blinds are too high to not move allin here. Also I would move allin on any 2 cards, but Q high is automatic.

Note that in this situation, allin isn't correct only because of the shortstack, but also because you have a decent hand.

Also unfortunately, this hand isn't remotely similar to Daliman's hand.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]

Also unfortunately, this hand isn't remotely similar to Daliman's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I shoulda posted that.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
but also because you have a decent hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

im curious about this as i feel it is an area i can improve upon...heads up, q5 is good because of the high card?

[curtains]

Q5o is good enough to go allin here and turn the hand face up, yes. Check out Karlsen - Sklansky hand ratings if you need confirmation.

[dfscott]

This doesn't really have anything to do with your play, but it's bugging the crap out of me.

How did you win this hand? You both had nines and he had an Ace kicker, right? What am I missing?

(My brain hurts.)

Edit: Doh, I'm an idiot and only highlighted half of the results line. Serves me right for looking at the results.

[Apathy]

The fact that the hand is Q5 is pretty inconsequential. I push 23o in this spot too.

[curtains]

Yes I do too, but it can't hurt to know that having Q5o here is actually +EV on it's own, without needing any extraneous factors.

[Nottom]

I'd push this pretty much 100% of the time.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but also because you have a decent hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

im curious about this as i feel it is an area i can improve upon...heads up, q5 is good because of the high card?

[/ QUOTE ]

Q5 is pretty close to average against a random hand. The Blinds here more than cover the missing EV if this were heads up instead of on the bubble ad you didn't have all that to consider which of coursemakes it an even easier push.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Also unfortunately, this hand isn't remotely similar to Daliman's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, it's in the same vein.

I've got a couple of doozies that way tonight. I'm going to post it in a thread titled 'What the f*** was this guy thinking?'

[raptor517]

well, this is actually nowhere close to anything like dalis hand, but yea, its a no brainer push, and im pushing any 2 here, and the next hand, and the guy that called is a complete moron, and i want his sn so i can play at his table forever. 3uo

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
well, this is actually nowhere close to anything like dalis hand, but yea, its a no brainer push, and im pushing any 2 here, and the next hand, and the guy that called is a complete moron, and i want his sn so i can play at his table forever. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes it a terrible call?

(1) OP stated that he had pushed frequently without a showdown.
(2) Caller could be aware of the bully value in pushing any two.

A7 isn't AA but it guarantees at least a slight edge against MOST of OP's range.

Does this become a good call if all three short stacks have the same amount of chips (~4BBs)?

If you had his screenname and he consistently pushed small edges over you, wouldn't he take all your money eventually?

[raptor517]

hmm, wow, are you joking me? like, april fools was over 7 hours ago.. do you call this spentrent? i dont see how you can call this and be a winning player.. as for a slight edge, its like MAYBE 56% against any 2 cards. MAYBE. i duno all the numbers perfectly, but thats pretty close. im NEVER going to call right here with A7. ever. EVER. i dont really want to write a book right now as to why not.. but no, he could never possibly beat me long term calling on the bubble with A7. im not THAT terrible.. 3uo

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, wow, are you joking me? like, april fools was over 7 hours ago.. do you call this spentrent? i dont see how you can call this and be a winning player.. as for a slight edge, its like MAYBE 56% against any 2 cards. MAYBE. i duno all the numbers perfectly, but thats pretty close. im NEVER going to call right here with A7. ever. EVER. i dont really want to write a book right now as to why not.. but no, he could never possibly beat me long term calling on the bubble with A7. im not THAT terrible.. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay so pokerstove tells me A7o is about a 59% favorite over any two. So that means that if this situation comes up and you're being the bully and I'm the stupid caller, 59% of the time I'm going to double up and 41% of the time I get the booby prize.

If I'm a table with 3 decent players, I'm hungry for that edge. How many more chances will I have to double up with an edge like that? I can't really see a flop at this point so brilliant post-flop play isn't going to double me up and give me a shot at winning.

Now in this very specific case I'd muck it since I've just paid my BB and it's on it's way to the guy with ~2.5BBs. But I'm challenging the consensus here NOT because I think I'm right -- or because I'm joking -- but rather because I want to be a better player. I'm trying to get a feel for when I DO make that call with A7o.

WHAT IF all the short stacks were of a similar size, like 4 or 5 BBs? You didn't address that. Is a 59% edge on that kind of bubble big enough?

[nWirb]

You don't know he has Q5o if you were in the callers situation, he might has well have A8 and you would be dominated and probably finish 4th.
The reason you can't call here is because of the gap concept.

[toda2]

I am a newbie and find this thread very interesting. Would someone tell me if you would call here with 77?

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't know he has Q5o if you were in the callers situation, he might has well have A8 and you would be dominated and probably finish 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your point? He might as well have A8? He might as well have KJ or 94 or anything. The point is that A7 is favored over his likely range.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you can't call here is because of the gap concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a reason.

[microbet]

Edit - In response to the Raptor-Spentrent discussion on what to do if you are BB, can't move it.

$EV
Call and win = .329
Fold = .216

If you put him on any two
.588 x .329 = .194

So $EV is a fold in this situation even if you put him on any two.

Hero certainly doesn't want a call though. Raptor, if you are playing against BB, what's your strategy?

The question about 77 - If you really put the SB on ANY two it is very very close. If you put him on any kind of range it is -$EV.

[valenzuela]

Why dont we let good ol ICM solve this dispute( I think the call is the most disgusting action to be made)

[microbet]

Hey, I posted some ICM below.

Valenzuela, as I recall, you are 16 and Chilean. Perhaps you don't realize that your post to spentrent may sound a bit like "Andate a la Chuchatumadre" to him. Or maybe you do.

Hey Raptor, you're not the youngest.

[Irieguy]

This is an easy push as long as the BB doesn't have crap for brains. But he does, apparently, and I find it hard to believe that you had no way of knowing that.

Is this really the first horrible call he's made all SNG?

All of that notwithstanding, I push here just about everytime.

Irieguy

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really the first horrible call he's made all SNG?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I remember, yes. Now, he made a couple of crappy calls afterward when we got heads up. Which is why he came in 2nd.

[curtains]

Even if he does have crap for brains this is an easy push IMO.

[TruFloridaGator]

How common does some idiot call you like that in the 50s? Just wondering. Thanks for an awesome discussion as always.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
How common does some idiot call you like that in the 50s? Just wondering.

[/ QUOTE ]

More often than you'd think. Look at this moron, also from last night:



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t90)
CO (t2410)
Button (t2540)
Hero (t4960)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of t400.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t400, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to t4960 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t2140 (All-In).

Flop: (t7500) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t7500) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t7500) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t7500

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 6d 3h (high card, ace).
Button has 7h Qs (two pair, queens and sevens).
Outcome: Button wins t5080. Hero wins t2420. </font>

[microbet]

I don't have the hand groupings and how often they are dealt, but did some approximating and it looks like a good push as long as the 'idiot' doesn't call here with worse than like top 1/3 hands.

What if BB and UTG are both idiots?

[curtains]

I think it's a fine push if they call with 100% of hands.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy push, terrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree this is an easy push. But terrible call by BB? Obviously BB knows Hero is pushing with most hands. His A7 is going to be a favorite most of the time. If he wins this hand he's just about a lock to money and probably take at least 2nd. I call this as BB.

[microbet]

Hey, I guess you're right.

BB calls with any two:

You fold $EV = .386
Push .5 x .331 + .5 x .446 = .388

I only did one player calls, but in real life neither will call with ANY two, so it seems the push is good.

But, what do I know?

[curtains]

I'm sorry I didnt see the previous hand, I was referring to the Q5o hand. Not sure why you are talking about two players involved in the hand, isn't it just heads up in the first hand and the 2nd?

[microbet]

Just a miscommunication. I had asked what if they were both idiots and when you said 'they' I thought ... blah blah blah whatever

I'm satisfied it is a push. I just hope I make it when I get there. I was there (making these pushes) for a while, but then I let it get to me when people were calling me an idiot over and over. Weak. I know. I'll get over it.

[EasilyFound]

For those who say that this is a bad call, what is the minimum hand needed to call this push on the bubble? I would've thought calling w/A7 was a good call if I thought the pusher was pushing any two cards. But what do I know.

[microbet]

If he has any two, I think about 77 or AJ+.

I don't think you could assume any two though and that would make it more like TT+ or AQ+. I think. I didn't run any more numbers. If he is tight, then probably JJ+ or AK.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you could assume any two though

[/ QUOTE ]

But poster did say that he had pushed a few hands recently w/out being called. Doesn't that suggest that the pusher is likely to be pushing w/something that makes A7 a favorite? Or is that just faulty analysis?

[microbet]

You gotta put him on a range of hands and do the calcs. Sure, he may push with A2, but if his pushing range is PP, Ax, then well he could have A2, but he could have AK. The question is, how do you do against the whole range. If he won't push with, say, J4, the calcs are going to come out a lot worse for A7 than if you say he pushes with any two.

Plus, A7 wasn't even a good call if he pushes with any two. If you KNEW he had 72 it would be a different story.

[Jason Strasser]

No brain push. Elementary.

[raptor517]

so spent, you still call with A7 here? whats your sn so i can follow you around too? 3uo

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
so spent, you still call with A7 here? whats your sn so i can follow you around too? 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my post. I said I don't call there. Glad you put some thought into your post.

[curtains]

What the heck is 3uo?

[raptor517]

oh, well, you seemed pretty adamant about it earlier. dont get pissy at me cuz every showed how flawed your logic was. 3uo

[Alpha Fhish]

is some advice. Heres the HH:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

Button (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, Q.
2 folds, MP1 calls t20, 3 folds, Button calls t20, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t80) 9, T, Q (4 players)
Hero bets t140, BB folds, MP1 calls t140, Button calls t140.

Turn: (t500) 4 (3 players)
Hero bets t400, MP1 folds, Button calls t400.

River: (t1300) K (2 players)

Final Pot: t1300

Looking back..I think the SB complete might have been fhishy but i like the flop overbet.
Call/Fold/Push and why?

[Alpha Fhish]

Oops i cut pasted but it didnt paste suits...no flush draws or anything

[curtains]

I think that one of the most dangerous situations in holdem come when you have top+bottom or bottom 2 pair on a coordinated board, against many opponents with deepish stacks. I think I've been guilty of overplaying in this spot and most others do as well.

[gsyme]

What the bloody heck is wrong with everyone? As demonstrated, the caller made a +chip EV decision and everyone is calling the caller a complete moron. Last time I checked, +chip EV is a good thing, and you want to be making those calls in those situations, and making that call in almost any situation hardly qualifies anyone as a complete moron.

I don't like the peanut-gallery drooling substanceless replies I've seen so far in this chain. If some better poker player can show the reasoning to me, I'll accept it. Until then, I'll continue to call a push-with-any-two player with A7 last to act.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Last time I checked, +chip EV is a good thing,

[/ QUOTE ]
You have things to learn about SNGs, don't worry your in the right place, read posts keep your mouth shut and you might learn something

[ QUOTE ]
I'll continue to call a push-with-any-two player with A7 last to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then again, maybe your hopeless.

[gsyme]

This is exactly the kind of drooling useless response (complete with misspelled words!) I did NOT want.

Keep your mouth shut and maybe youll learn something form more intelligent posters.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the kind of drooling useless response (complete with misspelled words!) I did NOT want.

Keep your mouth shut and maybe youll learn something form more intelligent posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I was right you ARE hopeless.

[microbet]

You are under arrest for thread hijacking. You have the right to remain postless. Any posts you make can and will be held against you.

Just kidding, try bumping your post if no one responds.

I would complete. I would bet pot on the flop. I think I would check the turn.

[raptor517]

sigh. +chip ev means little in that situation. do you understand that? this is a tournament. in tournament poker, strategy changes. not everything is about maximizing chip ev. this is a -$ ev call to make even against ANY 2 cards. if you call and lose, you make no money. you have no fold equity to steal, as you are simply calling. it is therefore not a good play. you can fold here, and make a steal later, and at least give yourself a chance to win the pot by stealing the blinds. dont criticize people for not making it clear to you how to correctly play. listen and learn, its a good thing. 3uo

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy push, terrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree this is an easy push. But terrible call by BB? Obviously BB knows Hero is pushing with most hands. His A7 is going to be a favorite most of the time. If he wins this hand he's just about a lock to money and probably take at least 2nd. I call this as BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible Push. Good call!

[raptor517]

terrible post! good push! you clearly dont understand tournament poker either! 3uo!

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
sigh. +chip ev means little in that situation. do you understand that? this is a tournament. in tournament poker, strategy changes. not everything is about maximizing chip ev. this is a -$ ev call to make even against ANY 2 cards. if you call and lose, you make no money. you have no fold equity to steal, as you are simply calling. it is therefore not a good play. you can fold here, and make a steal later, and at least give yourself a chance to win the pot by stealing the blinds. dont criticize people for not making it clear to you how to correctly play. listen and learn, its a good thing. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your analysis change if this is not a bubble situation? Suppose there is another stack w/1500. Do you make the call then? What about six handed? Or do you still fold and look to pick a better spot to steal?

[raptor517]

i would still fold and find a better spot. there are MANY better spots. 3uo

[EasilyFound]

In your view, what is an appropriate hand to call with in this situation?

[gsyme]

I didn't know that useless and insulting posts were welcome around here. You can't learn from anyone saying "your an idiot lol". I'll criticize posts like those, thanks.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know that useless and insulting posts were welcome around here. You can't learn from anyone saying "your an idiot lol". I'll criticize posts like those, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The callers play was +chipEV but -$EV. The latter is far more important than the former.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, well, you seemed pretty adamant about it earlier. dont get pissy at me cuz every showed how flawed your logic was. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird I hadn't considered you a troll before. holla

[raptor517]

im curious as to how you think im trolling. im providing useful information and you are taking it the wrong way. this is a forum. people post opinions, facts, etc. you were wrong, and now you are bitter about it. dont call me a troll when im helping. i think you will find many people who criticize much more than i. 3uo

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
im curious as to how you think im trolling. im providing useful information and you are taking it the wrong way. this is a forum. people post opinions, facts, etc. you were wrong, and now you are bitter about it. dont call me a troll when im helping. i think you will find many people who criticize much more than i. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I'll try to find this useful information in the replies you've made to me...

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, wow, are you joking me? like, april fools was over 7 hours ago.. do you call this spentrent? i dont see how you can call this and be a winning player.. as for a slight edge, its like MAYBE 56% against any 2 cards. MAYBE. MAYBE. i duno all the numbers perfectly, but thats pretty close. im NEVER going to call right here with A7. ever. EVER. i dont really want to write a book right now as to why not.. but no, he could never possibly beat me long term calling on the bubble with A7. im not THAT terrible.. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Useful? I guess "MAYBE 56%" shows promise? I see no information, all bloat. Next post:

[ QUOTE ]
so spent, you still call with A7 here? whats your sn so i can follow you around too? 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Useful? Next post:

[ QUOTE ]
oh, well, you seemed pretty adamant about it earlier. dont get pissy at me cuz every showed how flawed your logic was. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

Useful? Where did you show anything about anything? The "MAYBE 56%" comment? Next?

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Even if he does have crap for brains this is an easy push IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking...

I'm not sure you can construct a calling hand range that is actually bad for Hero here (some will be worse than others of course). However, I've run no #s yet, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if he does have crap for brains this is an easy push IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking...

I'm not sure you can construct a calling hand range that is actually bad for Hero here (some will be worse than others of course). However, I've run no #s yet, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you're willing to assume that the SB is pushing with any two, then the calcs say you're +10% EV to call with 66+, ATo+, A9s+, or KJs.

This STILL doesn't means that it's +$EV...

[raptor517]

lol, what the hell do you do dude? you spout bad advice like its carved in stone, and get pissed when someone shows you they are wrong. maybe i get a little sarcastic sometimes in my posts, so what. i can almost guarantee you that reading my posts is +ev. and no, im not trolling. holla

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if he does have crap for brains this is an easy push IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking...

I'm not sure you can construct a calling hand range that is actually bad for Hero here (some will be worse than others of course). However, I've run no #s yet, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you're willing to assume that the SB is pushing with any two, then the calcs say you're +10% EV to call with 66+, ATo+, A9s+, or KJs.

This STILL doesn't means that it's +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't find a range of calling hands the BB could call the SB's Q5o with here that would make the allin from the SB -$EV. If he's calling with a HUGE range then it becomes marginal...but still +$EV.

I don't think even the biggest chump would callin with any two in the BB here.

Interestingly for calling from the BB, the +$EV range is smaller than I thought unless u know the SB is a very good player pushing with any two (even then it's tight).

Yugoslav
I'd call with AA-QQ and AK in the BB here....maybe a few more if SB big stack is a huge maniac.

[curtains]

Well reading some of your posts is +EV raptor, although Im not sure my play would be improved much by your last post.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Even if he does have crap for brains this is an easy push IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking...

I'm not sure you can construct a calling hand range that is actually bad for Hero here (some will be worse than others of course). However, I've run no #s yet, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

IF you're willing to assume that the SB is pushing with any two, then the calcs say you're +10% EV to call with 66+, ATo+, A9s+, or KJs.

This STILL doesn't means that it's +$EV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't find a range of calling hands the BB could call the SB's Q5o with here that would make the allin from the SB -$EV. If he's calling with a HUGE range then it becomes marginal...but still +$EV.

I don't think even the biggest chump would callin with any two in the BB here.

Interestingly for calling from the BB, the +$EV range is smaller than I thought unless u know the SB is a very good player pushing with any two (even then it's tight).

Yugoslav
I'd call with AA-QQ and AK in the BB here....maybe a few more if SB big stack is a huge maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... are you using eastbay's tool? I just plugged it and asked it to compute the call hands. If I put in EXACTLY Q5o, you get a much wider range: 55+, AQo+, KQo, A5o, A5s, K5o, K5s, Q9o+, Q8s+.

Note: all this should be caveated with the fact that this functionality is still experimental, I believe. eastbay can probably elaborate...

[The once and future king]

Im much more intrested in the call than I am in the standard push.

Whilst I think the call is bad there are considerations that I havnt seen mentioned.

There is implied equity in calling. What I mean by this is that if one folds and plays passively then the inaitive and the stealing equity remains with the Big stack.

By calling one removes this. You will also take the inaitive away from the former big stack. He will be approach steals from you with a lot more caution knowing/thinking you are willing to call him down. Alot of players that were bullying with the big stack will thus tighten up in regard to you and thus If you win this initial confrontation I think you are now favourite to win this SNG.

Of course the fact that the Blinds are so high mitigates against this greatly. If the blinds were smaller I would be much more inclined to call with A7 (Very dependent on player read on the bullying stack and other considerations) as I have more time to leverage the implied equity I have just gained and also the small stack is not so close to demise.

My thoughts if holding the A7 relate to wether I want to be rolled over by the big stack in relation to my desire to outlast the small stack playing with just above 2xBB. A fear that any one with any poker ability will be exploiting.

I am going to make what will seem like a very idiosyncratic statement which is that mostly I fold here with A7 but sometimes I call. Unpredictabiltiy and a demonstrated desire to defend ones blinds has a certain amount of implied equity also, especialy against stronger opposition.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, what the hell do you do dude? you spout bad advice like its carved in stone, and get pissed when someone shows you they are wrong. maybe i get a little sarcastic sometimes in my posts, so what. i can almost guarantee you that reading my posts is +ev. and no, im not trolling. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take this post as acknowledgement that you've said nothing useful in this thread.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Hmm... are you using eastbay's tool? I just plugged it and asked it to compute the call hands. If I put in EXACTLY Q5o, you get a much wider range: 55+, AQo+, KQo, A5o, A5s, K5o, K5s, Q9o+, Q8s+.

Note: all this should be caveated with the fact that this functionality is still experimental, I believe. eastbay can probably elaborate...

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting the SB on exactly Q5o here doesn't make sense to me b/c you can't read the SB for that hand. You have to put SB on a range before calling. Unless you really think the SB is capable of pushing any two (if he's not, then he's going to be much tighter, players not willing to play any two generally aren't willing to play top 70% or even top 50% as well).

It is *extremely* player dependent on whether to call or not. With no reads I'm calling with very little. Your range would be absolute suicide, IMO. Calling with 55 here is *horrible* --- even if SB is playing any two. The minimum you'd need is 77 to call believe (if you're absolutely certain SB is playing any two).

Perhaps I'm completely misusing Easty's Analyzer though or running into some sorta bug....I don't have much exerpience with it.

Yugoslav
How do you ask it to compute all the call hands, btw?

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling with 55 here is *horrible* --- even if SB is playing any two. The minimum you'd need is 77 to call believe (if you're absolutely certain SB is playing any two).

Perhaps I'm completely misusing Easty's Analyzer though or running into some sorta bug....I don't have much exerpience with it.

Yugoslav
How do you ask it to compute all the call hands, btw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2061251&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1) like you are using it correctly.

[NeoGeo]

Let's not argue whether you think I can play STT or not. The fact is Hero has the chip lead, he doesn't need risk doubling 2nd chip leader with Q5o rags. I will attack 3rd chip lead since 4th place guy only has 2 BB to go and both of them are most conscious in survival mode. If I go attack 2nd chip leader, all-in is too suspicious to invite A7o call.

[steeser]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy push, terrible call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, although you have to be prepared for some players to get tired of your aggressiveness and gamble with a hand.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not argue whether you think I can play STT or not. The fact is Hero has the chip lead, he doesn't need risk doubling 2nd chip leader with Q5o rags.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you can play STTs, but you are giving up one of the best tools of the winning player, which is bullying by the big stack on the bubble when the blinds are big and there is a small stack in danger.

If your goal is to finish in the money in this particular STT, then you may be right--pushing with Q5o in this situation is probably not a good move. For example, if someone put a gun to your head and said "You must finish in the money or I will shoot you," then I agree that it is poor to push Q5o in this situation.

If your goal is to maximize your return over a large number of STTs, then you should be drooling over this situation. It doesn't get much better than this. All of the winning players are telling you this.

[raptor517]

i think this is terrible advice. A7 can go ahead and call me there every single time. he will be losing money every time he makes that call. 3uo

[nokona13]

So I've been running scared recently on the bubble after a bad run pushing on the bubble into tables full of callboxes and getting hands like K5 called by K7 all in over and over...

In the OP's situation, the ICM says it's a push vs. an opponent who will call any two. What if you have J8o on the button, bubble, with two IDIOTS on the blinds, who will call with every hand that beats you? I haven't run the numbers, but if J8o is also +$EV vs. someone who will call any two, substitute a hand that is -$EV if the blinds' calling ranges are too big but +$EV vs. blinds with some idea of calling with marginal hand giving $EV away to all other players at the table. Does anyone have any general guidelines they play by when playing complete idiot calling stations vs. kinda stupid calling stations vs. good players?

[nova]

One trend I see is that there seems to be a good amount of support for the aggressive move with queen high: yet the call is being looked at as 'completely absurd'.

Depending on the personality of the player and depending on how many times that you've put the screws to him, eventually he may have thrown any sort of EV or hand-rankings out the window and said "ENOUGH"

Here the caller is in a situation that say he folds: he gives up his blind to 2 random cards. Who's to say that the same situation doesn't arise next time the position is the same? SB moves all in, and he has to make a decision to give away another BB. Wash Rinse Repeat.

Possibly the caller figured "ace middle, I've had enough. I have to get on even footing with this guy". The caller may think along the lines of anyone here in the camp of "gotta push, 100% of the time, any 2 cards, etc". Has to make a stand, has an ace, see's what happens.....

I'm not choosing a side btw, I'm just offering up some potential thoughts on the caller's side of things.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on the personality of the player and depending on how many times that you've put the screws to him, eventually he may have thrown any sort of EV or hand-rankings out the window and said "ENOUGH"

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with that, the bubble situation and the fact that I have him covered should make him fold many hands despite the fact that he's 90% confident he's ahead.

[NeoGeo]

[ QUOTE ]
i think this is terrible advice. A7 can go ahead and call me there every single time. he will be losing money every time he makes that call. 3uo

[/ QUOTE ]

I know A7 all-in call has negative EV; however, there are time when I bully my opponenets when it is down to wire. Usually big blind will call with A7, particularly suited, and catch his 7 over my AK(he's happy with being 29% underdog) But people know this bully play and trying to send you a statement. I don't believe in bullying 2nd chip stack with rags, if you lose this play you lose the lead and have mental set back competing with 2nd and 3rd chip stack. Sometime a mistake play turn out to be good play. I stand with my opinion.