AT question

[istewart]

Sorry, I'm horrible at using the search function.

Anyway, lately I've started doubting what I'm doing with AT preflop. I'm curious about the following situations, because I'm limping in all three and not sure if that's right.

1) UTG at a standard table. Limp? Raise?
2) UTG+1 or UTG+2 with one so-so limper. Limp or raise?
3) On the button after a bunch of passive limpers. Limp or raise?

Thanks micro fellas.

[btspider]

buy SSH /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ATs, raise if no one else has from any seat.

AT, fold pre-MP2.. then consider raising a couple weak limpers in MP2/MP3/CO if you can buy the button and get a 3-way flop or something. limp or raise many limpers, they seem close in value. it will come down to postflop comfort on which makes you the most money. don't raise from the blinds unless there is only 1 (sometimes 2) limpers.

[Catt]

1. Raise (though I'm not sure what a standard table is)
2. Raise
3. Raise

All answers assume it is ATo -- with ATs all are raises for me without hesitation. Raising 1 & 2 requires an ability to fold on the flop (or turn) after raising pre-flop. If you feel you must always see a turn, or always bet / raise a flop after raising pre-flop, then raising will not necessarily be the best move pre-flop.

[istewart]

I own it, lol. Everything everyone does here is such a mix of it (tight/loose) that I haven't looked at the preflop chart in awhile, trying to go at that bit myself, at least.

[istewart]

Yes, it's all ATo, not ATs.

[Malachii]

Before reading any of the other posts....

1.) Limp, unless it's a table that's seen a lot of preflop raising. Then I'd muck.

2.) Limp. I think raising to try and isolate him is way too risky... too many players left to act, and you're in a mess if you get three bet.

3.) Definitely raise if it's suited. I've been raising in this situation if it's offsuit. I'm not sure that this is a great play though, because while it's unlikely there's a bigger ace out there with a bunch of limpers, how much of an equity edge do you really have in this spot?

[Malachii]

I don't know about raising under the gun with A-10... Anyone that reraises you is likely to have you dominated, and I don't think A-10o is profitable enough to make up for having to fold it to a reraise or on the flop. Maybe if you play well enough postflop you can make up for it, but I don't know if this is the optimal preflop play.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about raising under the gun with A-10... Anyone that reraises you is likely to have you dominated, and I don't think A-10o is profitable enough to make up for having to fold it to a reraise or on the flop. Maybe if you play well enough postflop you can make up for it, but I don't know if this is the optimal preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some are big advocates of raising UTG and some not. Kinda like KQo UTG. True you must be very careful if reraised; but also true that by raising you prevent a lot of dangerous hands from seeing the flop that would otherwise have seen it if they only had to limp behind other limpers.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about raising under the gun with A-10... Anyone that reraises you is likely to have you dominated, and I don't think A-10o is profitable enough to make up for having to fold it to a reraise or on the flop. Maybe if you play well enough postflop you can make up for it, but I don't know if this is the optimal preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some are big advocates of raising UTG and some not. Kinda like KQo UTG. True you must be very careful if reraised; but also true that by raising you prevent a lot of dangerous hands from seeing the flop that would otherwise have seen it if they only had to limp behind other limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo and KQo are grouped together.. ATo is not in the same league. are you sure you are talking about ATo? ATo is PF muck UTG for most people here.

[Isura]

I limp when the table is like 30/5 or more passive.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about raising under the gun with A-10... Anyone that reraises you is likely to have you dominated, and I don't think A-10o is profitable enough to make up for having to fold it to a reraise or on the flop. Maybe if you play well enough postflop you can make up for it, but I don't know if this is the optimal preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some are big advocates of raising UTG and some not. Kinda like KQo UTG. True you must be very careful if reraised; but also true that by raising you prevent a lot of dangerous hands from seeing the flop that would otherwise have seen it if they only had to limp behind other limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo and KQo are grouped together.. ATo is not in the same league. are you sure you are talking about ATo? ATo is PF muck UTG for most people here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put me in the muck group (unless the table is really fishy 70% VPIP, low PFR). I would play it otherwise as in spider's previous post.

[BriPlay]

thanks for the post.
My take:
ATo: limp limp limp
ATS limp raise raise

be carful after the flop!

Brian

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about raising under the gun with A-10... Anyone that reraises you is likely to have you dominated, and I don't think A-10o is profitable enough to make up for having to fold it to a reraise or on the flop. Maybe if you play well enough postflop you can make up for it, but I don't know if this is the optimal preflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some are big advocates of raising UTG and some not. Kinda like KQo UTG. True you must be very careful if reraised; but also true that by raising you prevent a lot of dangerous hands from seeing the flop that would otherwise have seen it if they only had to limp behind other limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo and KQo are grouped together.. ATo is not in the same league. are you sure you are talking about ATo? ATo is PF muck UTG for most people here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? That seems wrong to me. If AJ is a raise PF (and I think it is for most here?), shouldn't AT be at least a limp? Maybe I am playing a LAGtastic game. I checked my PT stats at 2/4, and though the sample size is pretty small, ATo is quite profitable from EP for me. (Interestingly, I rarely raised it at 1/2 when I was less comfortable with my game).

UTG I am raising it 60% of the time.
UTG+1 I am raising it 57.4% of the time.
UTG+2 I am raising it 76.4% of the time.

Even the donkish "average" player via Pokerroom stats show it as at worst mildly -EV (though it doesn't break out limp versus raise). Edit: And the "mildly -EV" is more generally more than the blind cost of each hand.

[FishHooks]

Depeonds on the game, I think its profitable to raise UTG in most of the micro limit games, depending on how well you play post flop.

[HollywoodDB]

I like limp, limp, raise. But I am a tard.

[Saint_D]

From http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=10

Ev by seat.


<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Cards SB BB 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 D
AA 2.72 2.81 2.48 2.53 2.73 2.76 2.79 2.77 2.89 2.96
ATo -0.08 -0.04 -0.07 -0.02 0.02 0.01 -0.00 0.03 -0.00 0.00
</pre><hr />

This hand is close from any postition. I personally would ditch it until at least MP. If you are in late position it might be worth playing. You would need to have some postflop skill to make it pay.

[HollywoodDB]

Thanks for this list. Very helpful. So as the list reads A10o in EP, has a -.07 BB EV..?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
From http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=10

Ev by seat.


<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Cards SB BB 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 D
AA 2.72 2.81 2.48 2.53 2.73 2.76 2.79 2.77 2.89 2.96
ATo -0.08 -0.04 -0.07 -0.02 0.02 0.01 -0.00 0.03 -0.00 0.00
</pre><hr />

This hand is close from any postition. I personally would ditch it until at least MP. If you are in late position it might be worth playing. You would need to have some postflop skill to make it pay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful when you use these numbers. They represent the "average" Pokerroom player. This hand is close *for the average player* in any position. An intelligent player should be able to outperform the average player, which moves this into the profitable range (though margianlly so up front).

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

1) UTG at a standard table. Limp? Raise?-&gt;-&gt;-&gt;Fold


2) UTG+1 or UTG+2 with one so-so limper. Limp or raise?-&gt;-&gt;-&gt;Fold


3) On the button after a bunch of passive limpers. Limp or raise? What's a bunch? How do they play post-flop? With no other info, I'ld probably Limp


[/ QUOTE ]

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
Be careful when you use these numbers. They represent the "average" Pokerroom player. This hand is close *for the average player* in any position. An intelligent player should be able to outperform the average player, which moves this into the profitable range (though margianlly so up front).

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.