For those of you who are upset the Pope is dying...

[Rhone]

...I wonder if you could explain why.

I don't mean this question with any disrespect at all, I'm genuinely curious. To me, as a non-Catholic, I feel sorry the guy is dying in exactly the same way I would feel bad for any other public figure, his age, who I found out was dying, who I didn't have particularly strong positive or negative feelings for.

If you feel particularly sad about the pope's passing, or impending passing, more than you would from hearing about the death of, say, a head of state somewhere, is it strictly because he is the Pope, and you revere the position, and therefore the man who holds the position? Is it because of things you feel he accomplished during his papacy? Is it because he's been Pope for so long? or some combination of these? or some other reason I missed...?

thanks for helping out this confused Jew...

Rhone.

[mmbt0ne]

Well, what would make you feel worse; the PM of India dying, or your rabbi? I think that's the best I can explain it. He's a figurehead for everything that you believe in. If you don't believe, it's easy to understand why it wouldn't have as great an effect on you.

[daryn]

good analogy

[Rhone]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, what would make you feel worse; the PM of India dying, or your rabbi? I think that's the best I can explain it. He's a figurehead for everything that you believe in. If you don't believe, it's easy to understand why it wouldn't have as great an effect on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for me personally, if my rabbi were a jerk, then the PM of India. But I know others might feel differently.

I guess I'm trying to figure out whether the sadness comes more because of the position of the man who's dying or because of the man himself and what he did...

[Jack of Arcades]

Well, I'm not upset (or Catholic), but it'll be sad to lose a great, great man. He has many faults, but I'm sure, you, as a Jew, can attest to some of the wonderful things he's done to extend the Catholic hand to the Jewish community.

[Chairman Wood]

I raised in a very strict Catholic family, however, I have since left the church. I believe that for a person that isn't Catholic it could be explained as being similar to the outpouring of emotion, support, and tribute that occured when Ronald Reagan passed away. It really depends on the person though. He accomplished a lot during his reign. It does also have a lot to do with his position. There is a lineage associated with him that has a blood like bond with the Apostle Peter. So Catholics believe this is a pretty big deal. But I believe you have a lot of it right when comparing him to other head's of state that we have know for a long time.

[mmbt0ne]

Well, I've only lived through one Pope, so I can't really say if it's simply because of his position. However, I definitely think that the good he has done makes it much harder to take than if he was one of the bad Popes, like the line of Borgia and Medici Popes(basically the reason Protestantism started), or the Popes who sold Cardinalships to fund armies.

[Chairman Wood]

Both

[private joker]

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/VATICAN_POPE.sff_PPC105_20050330085005.jpg

Ow, my kidneys! And circulatory system!

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
...I wonder if you could explain why.

I don't mean this question with any disrespect at all, I'm genuinely curious. To me, as a non-Catholic, I feel sorry the guy is dying in exactly the same way I would feel bad for any other public figure, his age, who I found out was dying, who I didn't have particularly strong positive or negative feelings for.

If you feel particularly sad about the pope's passing, or impending passing, more than you would from hearing about the death of, say, a head of state somewhere, is it strictly because he is the Pope, and you revere the position, and therefore the man who holds the position? Is it because of things you feel he accomplished during his papacy? Is it because he's been Pope for so long? or some combination of these? or some other reason I missed...?

thanks for helping out this confused Jew...

Rhone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greetings.

For many Catholics, including myself, the impending death of Poppa John is a mixed bag. He has been the pope for a long (record?) amount of time. For most young Catholics he is the only pope they've known. He was a young and dynamic cleric who brough about a lot of change for the good in the world (the Solidarity movement in Poland, eucemenical work with the Eastern Orthodox church, the jews and muslims, vehenemently against the war in Iraq, etc). Also, he has been so public and open about his dying process, opposed to the usual youth-obsessed practice of our modern culture of hiding away while you die, that I think many Catholics have become overly attached to his presence.

On the other hand, the Church itself is in a time of great change. The American church, with the exception of a very vocal minority, has always been far to the left of John Paul's vatican. The Italians want the papacy back. The places where the Church is growing the most (Africa and South America) are underepresented in the hierarchy. The sex scandals in the US shook the faith of much of the middle class laiety. But, through all of it, there has been the steady, energetic and dignified presence of John Paul II. I think a lot of the emotions that devout Catholics are feeling are not just sentiment and nostalgia, but fear and/or hope for the future. For a lot of people A LOT is riding on the selection of the new pope and it's an unsettling feeling no matter what your theological/political disposition is.

Though I think it's a lot of fuss about nothing because it seems pretty clear that a moderate italian will probably take the papacy. But we'll see.

[beset7]

I was impressed that this thread started without any BS and threatened to stay that way. It's pretty hard to offend me but you just pulled it off. I once wooped someones ass outside a cardroom for making a joke about the pope and then refusing to apologize. Pretty Christian of me; I know... But nobody messes with the big poppa. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jason_t]

Not sure where else to post this, but since this is the "active" Pope thread right now, this is as good a place as any. Here is an interesting article (http://www.slate.com/id/2116085/) from Slate on the Catholic church.

[miajag81]

I have to admit that elicited a laugh.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I was impressed that this thread started without any BS and threatened to stay that way. It's pretty hard to offend me but you just pulled it off. I once wooped someones ass outside a cardroom for making a joke about the pope and then refusing to apologize. Pretty Christian of me; I know... But nobody messes with the big poppa. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry you were offended, but the intention was just to get a laugh, and mission was accomplished.

BTW -- I love your Toshiro Mifune avatar.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure where else to post this, but since this is the "active" Pope thread right now, this is as good a place as any. Here is an interesting article (http://www.slate.com/id/2116085/) from Slate on the Catholic church.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting article. It'd fit in well at a KKK meeting but that's besides the point. I love how it's PC to be anti-catholic. Liberal intellectuals have to have someobody to be prejudiced against because they spend so much time repressing their true racist sexist selves.

[Jack of Arcades]

Yeah, no.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I once wooped someones ass outside a cardroom for making a joke about the pope and then refusing to apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

You physically harmed another human being because they made a joke?

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was impressed that this thread started without any BS and threatened to stay that way. It's pretty hard to offend me but you just pulled it off. I once wooped someones ass outside a cardroom for making a joke about the pope and then refusing to apologize. Pretty Christian of me; I know... But nobody messes with the big poppa. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry you were offended, but the intention was just to get a laugh, and mission was accomplished.

BTW -- I love your Toshiro Mifune avatar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh Finally an avatar compliment! Mifune is a true talent.

I know you ment to elicit a laugh. I have this one big red button and that's ridicule of the Church. It's been a tough 3 or 4 years to say the least /images/graemlins/wink.gif It's tough because I understand intellectually why images like this elicit humor in some; i just wish others would consider that it's anything but funny to the worlds religious majority.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I once wooped someones ass outside a cardroom for making a joke about the pope and then refusing to apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

You physically harmed another human being because they made a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I"m anything but a saint and I hate bigots. I have a lot of cultural pride and there are certain things I won't tolerate. I gave him every opportunity to remove his foot from his mouth before I inserted mine.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

I enjoyed the article but he was playing just as fast and loose with the facts about the Kennedy administration and Cardinal Law as any hate-mongering propagahndist. But because it's a Slate journalist and we are all so intellectual and enlightened it'll fly.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
You physically harmed another human being becauase they made a joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
joke
n.

1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
4. Informal.
1. Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.
2. An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes.

I"m anything but a saint and I hate bigots. I have a lot of cultural pride and there are certain things I won't tolerate. I gave him every opportunity to remove his foot from his mouth before I inserted mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that in his mind you improved the status of your kind

[daryn]

ha, you stole my gig

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting article. It'd fit in well at a KKK meeting but that's besides the point. I love how it's PC to be anti-catholic. Liberal intellectuals have to have someobody to be prejudiced against because they spend so much time repressing their true racist sexist selves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy s[/i]hit (intended) is that ever an over-the-top reaction. My impression, from this reply and the a[/i]ss-whooping post is that you would never listen to a single word slandering any aspect of the Catholic church. Notice that this article was (rightfully) against policies the Church has taken and not against its followers.

[istewart]

Chill out, religion = teh suck anyway.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Chill out, religion = teh suck anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting article. It'd fit in well at a KKK meeting but that's besides the point. I love how it's PC to be anti-catholic. Liberal intellectuals have to have someobody to be prejudiced against because they spend so much time repressing their true racist sexist selves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy s[/i]hit (intended) is that ever an over-the-top reaction. My impression, from this reply and the a[/i]ss-whooping post is that you would never listen to a single word slandering any aspect of the Catholic church. Notice that this article was (rightfully) against policies the Church has taken and not against its followers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you'd read my original response to this thread you might infer that I have a lot of problems with the church and it's policies and like many in the Americas I'm considerably to the left of the Vatican. I'd like to see an African pope, married priests, full communion with the orthodox, a stronger stance on the death penalty, a return of the latin liturgy and a bunch of other shiyat that'll never happen in my lifetime.

This has nothing to do with having a low-tolerance for uninformed bigotry and/or well-spoken intellectuals who play fast and loose with facts because they know nobody actually knows what they are talking about and will just find it compelling like lemmings.

Yes. If you were jewish and somebody made an extremely offensive jew joke and then proceeded to refuse to retract in any way I'd be impressed if you turned the other cheek. I'm just not that spiritual.

[beset7]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that in his mind you improved the status of your kind

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no such intention.

[astroglide]

i've only skimmed this thread, but it's pretty clear you are a complete joke as a human being

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that in his mind you improved the status of your kind.

[/ QUOTE ]



I had no such intention.

[/ QUOTE ]

What were they?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

As a non-christian I find it sad anyway.

In a world where religious aggression is promoted by some leaders (Osama Bin Laden, George Bush etc.) he is one who has reached out to bridge those gaps. As such, if younger, he would have been a leader for the next century.

Hopefully his legacy will influence the Middle East and US.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you'd read my original response to this thread you might infer that I have a lot of problems with the church and it's policies and like many in the Americas I'm considerably to the left of the Vatican. I'd like to see an African pope, married priests, full communion with the orthodox, a stronger stance on the death penalty, a return of the latin liturgy and a bunch of other shiyat that'll never happen in my lifetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of these a totally distinct from the point of that article which is that it is outrageous that the Catholic church has succeeded in circumventing democratic law.

[ QUOTE ]

This has nothing to do with having a low-tolerance for uninformed bigotry and/or well-spoken intellectuals who play fast and loose with facts because they know nobody actually knows what they are talking about and will just find it compelling like lemmings.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a Rush Limbaugh quote, lemming? You play poker and you are a law student, yes? So you do have some understanding of analytical and critical thinking? Assuming that anyone who reads the content of the Slate article, finds it interesting, compelling and agrees with the points that it makes is a non-thinking uninformed lemming is not proper thinking from a correctly trained mind.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. If you were jewish and somebody made an extremely offensive jew joke and then proceeded to refuse to retract in any way I'd be impressed if you turned the other cheek. I'm just not that spiritual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless physically threatened, I don't see the value in kicking someone's ass over a joke regardless of offensiveness.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that in his mind you improved the status of your kind.

[/ QUOTE ]



I had no such intention.

[/ QUOTE ]

What were they?

[/ QUOTE ]

To cause pain as a result of unhealthy anger brought on as a result of a marked intolerance for bigotry. I'd blame it on my Irish heritage but that's a cop-out.

Look, I'm not trying to say that getting in a fight over an offensive comment is some admirable act. I found a picture mocking a dying figure that happens to be very important to people from my socio-cultural-religious background to be offensive. It's very hard to get the best of me and this is possibly the ONLY way to do so. I find bigotry, whether it be religious intolerance or otherwise, unsettling. When I have my guard down, it could potentially prompt me to act inappropriatly. My reaction to the picture reminded me of this incident.

The article you posted was interesting and well-written. It was, however, poorly researched and a case-in-point on the liberal media's tolerance for uninformed anti-Catholicism. I should've known better then to view it in the first place. I just wanted to respond to the original posters questions about why many Catholics feel emotional about the pope's death.

As far as the person who "skimmed the thread" and drew the conclusion that I'm a joke as a human being: peace be with you. Though you probably won't need it since you have such superior judgment and a refined ability to make strong conclusions based on imperfect information.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
Well, if you'd read my original response to this thread you might infer that I have a lot of problems with the church and it's policies and like many in the Americas I'm considerably to the left of the Vatican. I'd like to see an African pope, married priests, full communion with the orthodox, a stronger stance on the death penalty, a return of the latin liturgy and a bunch of other shiyat that'll never happen in my lifetime.

All of these a totally distinct from the point of that article which is that it is outrageous that the Catholic church has succeeded in circumventing democratic law.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are not totally distinct from your assertion that I would take offense at anything criticizing the church. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just recontextualize peoples comments so that they best fit our rebuttal? I wasn't even talking about the article when I said the above-qouted text.

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a Rush Limbaugh quote, lemming? You play poker and you are a law student, yes? So you do have some understanding of analytical and critical thinking? Assuming that anyone who reads the content of the Slate article, finds it interesting, compelling and agrees with the points that it makes is a non-thinking uninformed lemming is not proper thinking from a correctly trained mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. "Agreeing with the points" of the article is conditioned on accepting the facts as conveyed by the writer. You will do this without questioning because you expect publications like Slate to be accurate in their representations of fact. The media, on the both the left and right but predominantly the left, has tolerated a low-level of factual accuracy with respect to Church history and this article is no exception. But, understandably, but still lemming-like, you will accept it. I too found it interesting, but I know enough about the subject matter to take issue with it's representations of fact.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless physically threatened, I don't see the value in kicking someone's ass over a joke, regardless of offensiveness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I admire this. I am just not there. I could pretend like I am; but I am not.

[Emmitt2222]

He was one of the greatest men of this generation in my opinion. Not only is he the figurehead of the Church, he is like our spiritual father who leads us to God. The things he accomplished in his papacy were insane with traveling to so many coutries, forming peace with so many groups, helping to bring down communism. The fact that people who are non-Catholic have respect for a man who is a conservative Catholic who goes against many worldy happenings [contraception, abortion] is a testament to how great he was. You rarely see a man come along who is athletic [when he was younger], extremely intelligent, personable and charismatic. That man had everything going for him and I'm so glad that he left us with so much in his teachings that we can still learn from for years to come, especially Theology of the Body.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I admire this. I am just not there. I could pretend like I am; but I am not.

[/ QUOTE ]

bullshit. people write/say things like you just did to illustrate how proud they are of their actions in a "modest" way.

"man, i'd love to be normal. i really respect normal. it's just that i was born to rule, i haven't figured out how to not rule yet."

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, I admire this. I am just not there. I could pretend like I am; but I am not.

[/ QUOTE ]

bullshit. people write/say things like you just did to illustrate how proud they are of their actions in a "modest" way.

"man, i'd love to be normal. i really respect normal. it's just that i was born to rule, i haven't figured out how to not rule yet."

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think this is insightful? Obviously I'm proud of my actions or I wouldn't have proclaimed them to hundreds of people.

But they aren't admirable or ideal and not what I aspire to as I mature as a human being. But am I glad that I put a hurt on a bigot and stood up for myself and my culture? Yes and I'm not sure why pointing this out would be worth the keystrokes for such a superior intelligence as yours. Skimming threads and drawing conclusions about someones worth as human being: now THAT is something to aspire to.

EDIT: spelling.

[Emmitt2222]

Wow, that article did a good job of taking the impending death of the pope and turning it into just some all out bash on the Catholic Church. How did that happen so fast? One minute he's talking about the pope, the next its Cardinal law and then the Kennedy's and every other mistake the church has admittedly made... so basically it had very little to do with the pope at all.

The beginning of the article is the only place where there is actual criticism of the papacy itself. In reply to that I would say that, yes the Church does believe it to be providence who is selected, but everything does not go perfect in a fallen world so popes in the past have been corrupt. Also, concerning JPII's slow death and not stepping down, he is a living example of redemptive suffering which is admittedly difficult to understand. He is showing the Catholic population what is means to suffer as Jesus did for the salvation of souls. I find it amazing that even after he can no longer speak, he is still teaching us.

[partygirluk]

It is sad that an old man is dying in much pain. I think he is a very good natured man, and he has done a lot to improve inter-ethnic relations. He has shown remarkable fortitude in face of seemingly neverending ailments. He forgave the man who tried to assasinate him, and that is remarkable.

But, through his strong anti-condom stance he is responsible for many many deaths, particularly in Africa from HIV. I find it hard to reconcile his innate goodness with the massive harm he has caused.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
But am I glad that I put a hurt on a bigot and stood up for myself and my culture? Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, he made a f[/i]ucking joke. Chill the f[/i]uck out. And you didn't accomplish anything other than looking like a jerk.

Hurting people who are otherwise not threatening to you should be condemned by someone who claims to follow the Christian faith. Nay, by anyone.

[DBowling]

people are upset the Pope is dying...?

[CallMeIshmael]

I would consider myself a very "into it" Catholic.

By that, I mean: I dont miss Church. I do the community service thing. Pray regularily. And donate some of my income (ie. poker) to charities that help the poor.

Basically, I feel for the loss of the Pope as I would any great person. But I also feel that his life should be celebrated. He lived a long life, and one that was more full than any of us will live (well.. except maybe in that one area /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

Its sounds odd, but I didnt feel overly sad when my grandmother died. Simply because she was 90, and had Alzheimers. At some point, people need to die. It is natural, and this is how I feel in this case.


Also...to the guy who hit somebody because he refused apolgize for a joke:

I wont say anything mean, but, you do realize that violence is the last thing JP2 (as I called him) would want you to bring about in his name, right? Jesus was generally anti-violence. People like you are part of what is wrong with modern Christianity.

Lastly...just so I dont give the wrong impression...

Just because I am pro-Jesus, doesnt mean I am pro-Bush. Despite what redneck america will tell you, Kerrys politcal ideology is far more in line with what Christianity should be than is Bushs. And its not close.

[Emmitt2222]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because I am pro-Jesus, doesnt mean I am pro-Bush. Despite what redneck america will tell you, Kerrys politcal ideology is far more in line with what Christianity should be than is Bushs. And its not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't really want to get into an argument, but I just needed to correct this because incorrect information can be really bad. Kerry was in line with Protestanism perhaps, but definitly not Catholicism. Although Bush is pro-death penalty which goes against Church teaching, Kerry is pro-choice which is so completely against the teachings of JPII who made it a mission of his to fight for the culture of life. Because abortion is the killing of a person also, millions more are dead because of the pro-choice movement compared to the Iraq war and death-penalty. So although neither of the canadits were great for presidency this year, Bush was the more favorable of the two for conservative Catholics.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't really want to get into an argument, but I just needed to correct this because incorrect information can be really bad. Kerry was in line with Protestanism perhaps, but definitly not Catholicism. Although Bush is pro-death penalty which goes against Church teaching, Kerry is pro-choice which is so completely against the teachings of JPII who made it a mission of his to fight for the culture of life. Because abortion is the killing of a person also, millions more are dead because of the pro-choice movement compared to the Iraq war and death-penalty. So although neither of the canadits were great for presidency this year, Bush was the more favorable of the two for conservative Catholics.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this is a VERY sensitive subject, and I will tread lightly, but: What bothers me (and this isnt an attack on you at all, but just what it means to have 'Christian values' in general) is that your above quote didnt mention poverty. For some some odd reason, one of the most important issues in the teachings of Jesus is sort of fluffed over in modern discussions of what makes a Christian.

Now, I'm not an American citizen, and I dont consider myself an expert on American politics... but, which canditate would you consider to better represent the poorest 10% of your country?

For some reason, Christianity, IMHO, has moved towards a rule-fest of what you can and cant do, and has moved away from what it started as: an ideal, in which everyone has the right to live a life in which they arent marginalized.

[Jurollo]

jesse ventura: "religion is a crutch of the weak"
You know what..... I think he was right.
~Justin

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
it could be explained as being similar to the outpouring of emotion, support, and tribute that occured when Ronald Reagan passed away.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the outpouring of rose-colored historical biography and total crap that didn't affect my absolute contempt for this senile bastard at all?

No, I don't think the Pope reaches that level of disinterest for me. I have no reason to care either way that I can think of.

NT

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
jesse ventura: "religion is a crutch of the weak"
You know what..... I think he was right.
~Justin

[/ QUOTE ]

If he said that he speaks poor english. it would be THE crutch of the weak or a crutch FOR the weak. Plus he is just badly qouting Marx. Atleast Marx's forumulation was poetic sounding (the opiate of the masses).

[shawn_p]

maywage is what bwat us here today

wove twuuu wooove.......

Buttercup do you take this man..........