Give me a Frop Line

[Firefly]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero....

What am I doing here and why?

[einbert]

calling and three-betting if the action comes back to you

because you want to build a huge pot and not drive people out of the pot

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
calling and three-betting if the action comes back to you

because you want to build a huge pot and not drive people out of the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

[Firefly]

If the SB checks I should be betting out here, correct? I'm just not content with my flush draw play lately.

[luckyplayer]

you have a strong draw in a small pot. You call in order to keep players in and build a pot.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
you have a strong draw in a small pot. You call in order to keep players in and build a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not the size of the pot that determines the fact that Hero should just call as opposed to raise. I leave it as an excercise to the micros crowd to figure out why Hero should just call here.

[wyoak]

your four to the flush and backdoor straight draw give you much more than 17% pot equity. you want callers here, having them face two cold isn't a good won.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
If the SB checks I should be betting out here, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

for sure.

[string4]

My guess:

Even though raise/fold is the right answer most of the time to drive out the draws, in this case I would call because:

1. noone raised preflop, so smaller chance that there are A-Q spades to compete or counterfeit your draw and might cause the holder of the 10 spade to fold if it is unsuited w/ something else (could be nice if another spade fell later)
2. Unless the board pairs, Flush would dominate the board and the only other obvious draw, a straight, would come in second best.
3. if someone is playing pockets that hit this board, they will likely raise or call where they might fold facing two bets, giving you lots more options on future betting rounds to let them bluff into you or play "strong to appear weak"

New player here, so don't take this too seriously )

[jaxUp]

You are my favourite n00b ever. Have not seen any [censored] so far, and you reply to threads with your own thoughts. Stellar. I think you over-thought this one a bit, but I'm not going to say why just yet...you will figure it out as this thread progresses, and if you don't then somebody smart will tell you.

[Firefly]

I'm calling here so people don't fold. When my draw gets there, i want people around who will pay me off with TP or whatever. My hand has an equity edge on the field and wants as many bets/players in the pot as humanly possible. My equity does not decrease as others call, like it would if i had top pair for example. The pot can be as big as whatever, but i still want people around to pay my c/r on the river off :P

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
If the SB checks I should be betting out here, correct? I'm just not content with my flush draw play lately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy, with your equity flush draw, you want to encourage callers, not discourage them.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
If the SB checks I should be betting out here, correct? I'm just not content with my flush draw play lately.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have reason to believe a bet will come from your near left, I would C/R here. If nothing leads you to believe this will happen, then yes, bet out.

[luckyplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have a strong draw in a small pot. You call in order to keep players in and build a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not the size of the pot that determines the fact that Hero should just call as opposed to raise. I leave it as an excercise to the micros crowd to figure out why Hero should just call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought was that if the pot was large, you would want to raise to increase your chances of winning it. But I guess, assuming you have no other flush draws against you, you only would protect in a big pot if you wanted to increase the chances of winning with top pair if you happen to hit.

Since you really only have outs to the flush and to the backdoor draw, there would be nothing to protect in a large pot. With your flush draw+backdoor straight draw, your equity is not enough to warrant raising.

Am I close?

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
With your flush draw+backdoor straight draw, your equity is not enough to warrant raising.

Am I close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, wrong time. We have the equity edge needed to raise our flush draw, but we have poor relative position to the raiser and don't want to knock otu players who will pay us off when we hit. If we could trap the field for 2, this would be worth a raise.

EDIT: hmm...chances are, I misinterpreted "your equity is not enough to warrant raising." I took it to mean your equity with a flush draw is not worth raising, and pehaps you meant "given your relative position, your equity with a flush draw is not worth a raise." I took it to mean the former. If you meant the latter, I apologize.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you have a strong draw in a small pot. You call in order to keep players in and build a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not the size of the pot that determines the fact that Hero should just call as opposed to raise. I leave it as an excercise to the micros crowd to figure out why Hero should just call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought was that if the pot was large, you would want to raise to increase your chances of winning it. But I guess, assuming you have no other flush draws against you, you only would protect in a big pot if you wanted to increase the chances of winning with top pair if you happen to hit.

Since you really only have outs to the flush and to the backdoor draw, there would be nothing to protect in a large pot. With your flush draw+backdoor straight draw, your equity is not enough to warrant raising.

Am I close?

[/ QUOTE ]

You get a gold star!

[dinero2433]

I think you want to call. Do not discourage other players with a raise. You want to see the pot get bigger - you make money on every bet that goes in on the flop.

[FishHooks]

Say the turn completed his flush, and the person in front bets, does he raise to knock out higher one cards spades? since they are getting odds to call to beat his flush on the river? I'm thinking the answer is yes to that since the pot will proboly be pretty big from the overcalls on the flop...any thoughts?

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Say the turn completed his flush, and the person in front bets, does he raise to knock out higher one cards spades? since they are getting odds to call to beat his flush on the river? I'm thinking the answer is yes to that since the pot will proboly be pretty big from the overcalls on the flop...any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hit the flush on the turn, easy raise.

[dinero2433]

A raise will be very unlikely to drive out a higher spade. Let's say that there are three players on the turn, all of which paid one small bet into the pot (4.5 BB by the turn). SB bets out, making it 5.5 BB. You raise, making it 7.5 BB, and two bets to the last player. SB is very likely to call your raise, so the player to your left is paying 2 BB to win at least 8.5, maybe more if you pay off a bet on the river when his spade falls. Any player to your left with a higher spade is correct to call your raise, given the size of the pot.

The reason you raise here is not to drive out higher spades - you raise because you very likely have the best hand, and you want draws to pay you off as big as possible.

[FishHooks]

I dissagree, you would get more value going for overcalls in this situation, raising to protect from a higher spade is what your trying to do. If he has a single spade he has 7 outs which is about 15% or 1:7 he doesn't have the odds to call a raise with just one single spade. If he calls then it is -EV for him and +EV for you.

[luckyplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With your flush draw+backdoor straight draw, your equity is not enough to warrant raising.

Am I close?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, wrong time. We have the equity edge needed to raise our flush draw, but we have poor relative position to the raiser and don't want to knock otu players who will pay us off when we hit. If we could trap the field for 2, this would be worth a raise.

EDIT: hmm...chances are, I misinterpreted "your equity is not enough to warrant raising." I took it to mean your equity with a flush draw is not worth raising, and pehaps you meant "given your relative position, your equity with a flush draw is not worth a raise." I took it to mean the former. If you meant the latter, I apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I meant, given that only 1 opponent is definitely in the pot, we don't have the equity edge necessary to raise. Definite raise if the other 2 called before it got to me.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I dissagree, you would get more value going for overcalls in this situation, raising to protect from a higher spade is what your trying to do. If he has a single spade he has 7 outs which is about 15% or 1:7 he doesn't have the odds to call a raise with just one single spade. If he calls then it is -EV for him and +EV for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? A single high spade can clearly call one bet on the turn with pot/implied odds easy.

[FishHooks]

Only a K or A can, you are raising to fold all other higher spades and to incease your win precentages.

[SteveL91]

You're calling the flop bet because raising isn't going to accomplish anything good. Given the rather draw heavy texture of the board, and number of players in it, raising to face the field with two cold isn't likely to drive out hands that you'd really like to see gone. If no one has a J (something I'm not willing to say given the amount of players), pairing your 9 might let you win the hand.... but you have no kicker and that 9 puts 3 to a straight on the board. If people were calling two cold, it's fairly possible they're chasing a draw.

Also, your equity edge really only comes into play if there are at least (I think) 2 or 3 other players in the hand; facing the field with two cold when it wasn't raised pre-flop means you're not likely to be raising for value because the other players aren't necessarily going to feel tied to the pot. It's also a small pot, and your draw wants over-callers.

[wyoak]

[ QUOTE ]
Only a K or A can, you are raising to fold all other higher spades and to incease your win precentages.

[/ QUOTE ]
No way I'm folding Qs or Ts here, especially if I have a pair already.

[FishHooks]

There is no Q or T on the flop so that is a moot point, you would not be in the hand with Q rag offsuit so you wouldn't have a pair of anything on that board. and calling a turn raise with just a lone Q of spades is -EV you get no action on 4 flushed boards unless you run into the A rag that eveyone loves to play in micros

[wyoak]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no Q or T on the flop so that is a moot point, you would not be in the hand with Q rag offsuit so you wouldn't have a pair of anything on that board. and calling a turn raise with just a lone Q of spades is -EV you get no action on 4 flushed boards unless you run into the A rag that eveyone loves to play in micros

[/ QUOTE ]
QsJc, for instance, isn't a hard hand to imagine here. same with JcTs, etc.
it's a bit moot though, because I think raising is the right play, but not because it's going to protect your hand.