Omaha PL Hi Lo Question

1. Help please! 1-2 blind pot limit most have $200-400 in front of them.

I was in a hand with AAJ2 ss. $8 to go 4 ways, I'm in the middle.

Flop is : A K 4, rainbow. UTG bets out @ $25. 1 call, I call with top set, 1 more call behind me for $25 and the button comes over the top with @ $200 (close) raise, all in.

The origional better calls all in, now it's on me with top set. I'm looking at a potential $700 (or more) pot with 2 to come IF my top set holds up. Everybody at this point will be all in.

*My thinking is there doesn't have to be a low much less a wheel. BUT, I don't call. The player behind me doesn't call.

I understand the freeroll concept BUT at this point there is NO low.

What please IS the correct decision. All opinions are appreciated. Results to follow.
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2. In pot limit Omaha High, when is it correct to Raise (and how much) with AAxx? I could really use some help with this one. Seems that although certainly NOT in any way like holdem, Aces should get value and narrow the field.

Is a better Omaha starting hand (in a ring game) 4 in a row single suited or AAxx?

Thank you Sincerely for any comments & help (I can take it /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Mark W]

I won't attempt the 1st question because I do not play hi low, but as to the 2nd question. I assume that you are stating that AAxx means the u are not suited with either Ace. Unless you are the 1st one in on the button and are trying to take the blinds this is a dog hand and should not be playd, much less raised. What do you hope to flop. You have no str8 potential nor flush potential. If you make the set it will cost u a lot of your money to draw for a pair. Dump it.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

You've got to call the all-in. While you might not be the favorite hand here, it's pretty unlikely that you're a dog compared to the price you're getting. You should be getting close to 3:1 on this call, and I just can't imagine very many scenarios where you won't have at least 25% equity in this pot.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Big Dave D]

Some quick points....
(a) If you werent the raiser preflop, u should have reraised as this hand plays MUCH better shorthanded.
(b) If you're not reraising all in on this flop then you simply shouldnt be playing at all. Its the perfect flop for you. Sure you have some risk, but ure not going to get people to put a lot of money in otherwise. If this was an online game then its quadruple bad not to go all in, as the standard of play could mean you're facing KK and a naked low draw.

Gl

I posted a hand below where the flop was 2-6-K, and I flopped a set of Kings, with no other draws. I folded mistakenly.

In this situation, esp. multiway, you've got to go all in.

Tim

Mark W...thank you for addressing qiestion #1. With aces ( and generally I wont raise unless one is suited and/or there is a straight card with the aces. Your logic is clear, I will adjust me play, ty.

One of the reasons I often raised with the aces and at least 1 good side card id to try and get it head up..most of the time this doesn't work. I will stop.

Many thanks

Thanks Greg, would like to know how u fugured the 3:1 dod please. (I have both of Ciaffone's books coming this week, that should help)

Part of mt desision to release top set in this spot was (incorrectly I'm sure) that to lose this amount of money in one hand I find psycologically debilitating. The internet games are rarely jam up, and to recoup something like a $300 in a hand mat take 2 or 3 DAYS!

Let me ask you Greg, what IS a big bet hand OMAHA HI LO since 1. AA@wheel cards come along rarely, 2. middle connectors are a trap, 3. Big cards are not a pre flop favorite in this game.

Any comments would be appreciated. BTW, if the top set hand was in a live game, ie most pots having $100 + in them, I would have called knowing that at least I would be able to recoup the loss should they be no good on the end. You know what the internet games are generally like...I must have the dead nuts to put in that kind of money with two to come. What do ya think?

Thanks, appreciate any input, feel free to jump down my throat if you like /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks Dave. I think Greg says I'm a 3 to 1 dog. Now I'm really confused. I think your talking abou my #1., top set on the flop with a board of A 5 Q, rainbow and I have just called @ $25 with 2 players behind and the button goes all in for @ $200 more, the origional better calls, I muck.

Results: They both MADE WHEELS! I would have taken roughly a $300+ loss on ther hand. You KNOW (I think) how long it would take to recoup that loss _online_. THAT was my problem. I thought that the @$200 call was a CLOSE money call, but didn't want to get scooped.

Thanks for any comments.

Tim...if someone has a A 3 4, another had a flush draw, arn't you in big trouble with KKK?

In my hand it was rainbow flop, and BOTH players put in over $200 on the FLOP with TWO to come. The TWO to come was part of my decision. One to come (and no low yet) I call.

Thanks for the input.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Whatever was in the pot, he bet it and got called. That's X in the pot, X in the bet, and X in the call, or 3X. You have to put in X to call, 3:1. You didn't give all the exact numbers for us, but it should have been close to 3:1 either way.

There is no such thing in any game as a pre-defined set of raising hands. You need to consider each hand given the current situation in its entirety. I realize that this advise isn't very helpful.

As for your final comments, where are you playing? I see huge pots repeatedly in the games at Pokerstars. Plus, even if what you say is accurate for where you play, so what? If the play has +EV, you should be taking it. If you won't take it because the risk is so high, then you're in too big of a game. If not too big for your bankroll, then too big for your mental bankroll.

[Big Dave D]

Brian,

You really need to have a serious think about your attitude towards big bet poker and whether you have the BR to compete in this game. It may make more sense to take a shot at a juicy 3-6 limit Omaha game instead as it may be the bet size and potential variance that is putting you off the game. I will look at how I think you should play big bet poker as whole, but before that, to answer your easier question, you should win back the 200 bucks in about 10 hours J

Playing big bet poker against bad players is fundamentally about putting your money in the pot with way the best of it – the better those players become the less of an edge you can expect in the big pots you play. This is why it is essential to have a substantial stack and also why it is critical that you are fearless in putting your money in when you think you have the best of it. Now plo8b is fairly unusual in that, against bad players, you can get situations where they HAVE ALMOST NO OUTS. This almost never happens in big bet he and plo – in the first case there is too much uncertainty built into the game, and in the second the variance is much higher and players will escape more often with crazy backdoor offerings. This is why plo games last, and plo8b games burn out.

In the hand in question, assuming that both opponents have 234, they only have 6 OUTS TO SCOOP BETWEEN THEM! Read that last sentence again. 6 outs. How much better do you need to get it? Sure sometimes you can have a lock on a ¾, but this is such a positive situation that you must take it, and take it hard. And this being online, they could have had just two pairs and a bare 23. Almost without exception the standard of big bet poker online is dire. There were only a handful of people who played plo8b to a high standard online, and they have almost all to a man/woman moved onto pastures greener.

GL

Dave, Greg,

Thank you for the excellent advice, I will take it.

As for putting it all in, I AM able to do that, often I think too early as NOT to see what the turn brings (Ray Zee once told me that nothing very important happens until the Turn). The other night in an OM PL hi game, I did put $255 all in, a call with dble suited aces to win an $980 pot (flopped bottom set, turned a full). One of my problems is with AAxx in OM HI PL I will too often try to isolate with a big raise pre flop (then too get too many callers) and will end up giving too cheap( ie make a 'feeler' bet, say, $15) a card on the flop unless I flop a set or close, ie flush draw, 2 pair. This part of my game is a mess.

Here's another one you may (please) comment on:

PL OM Hi, on button, called small raise with ...8 10 A K, dbl suited. now blind reraises another $10 and there is 5 callers. I call.

Flop is 8-10-2 with a flush draw & top 2. It's checked to me, I bet $25, trying to win it right there. The blind raises $125 all in, there is 1 call in the middle, I make it $155 all in.

Blind out draws me with J 10, 2 pair. He flopped a gutshot draw and (I guess) semi bluffed, went all in and won the pot.

Finally, are you saying that PL online does NOT change your style of play because 1. most players when they flop a hand like a wrap or topset will go all in ( and if they lose the hand buy in short again). 2. You would make a marginal BIG call, ie $100-$300 knowing that due to the nature of the games, it could be days to recoup the loss should you take it?

WHEN should the big bet be made in OM Hi PL Please (online)?



In other words do you NOT play online PL differently that a 'normal' ring "live" PL game with "real" blinds etc?

Would really appreciate your opinion. Thank you.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Per your description, there is at least $80 in the pot preflop, so I don't understand how you're betting $25 and hoping to win it right there. That doesn't sound too likely.

I still don't understand why you think it takes days to make up for losing one big pot. Big pots come along all the time where I play online.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Thanks Greg. Ok, the $25 flop bet was too small, I agree more than 'win it right there', I wanted to narrow the field & try to find out if there was a big hand out there. I did when the BB came over with the big raise, HE got it head up, if he could see my hand...he had a gutshot and 2 overcards to my top 2 and flush draw w/ AK. Point is, I seem to see these kind of beats often WHEN they jam a pot Greg. Just gamble with them for the right price I guess.

One reason I liked my call was the BB got the 2 pair hand head up. I expected him to have a wrap or hopefully a flush draw having him draw dead to it.

Re: 'hard to recoup a loss/beat w/ online PL'..I respectfully disagree with you Greg. I have played for months PL online, 10-15 hours a day and it's debilitating to take a big loss in a hand. Good players, small blinds and generally slow action (altho I agree with you about the relitive to the blinds). Have a $6-700 day loss and tell me how it's not hard to recoup Greg. Please comment further.

Would like more opinions on this please. I think it REQUIRES one to alter aggressive play.

Would like to hear from Ray on this.

[Big Dave D]

Sorry for the delay in replying Brian.

I am not sure you have taken on board the points I made...in the main they were:

"Playing big bet poker against bad players is fundamentally about putting your money in the pot with way the best of it – the better those players become the less of an edge you can expect in the big pots you play"

You did this in your fresh example, although you slightly misplayed the hand. Well done.

"plo...the variance is much higher and players will escape more often with crazy backdoor offerings. This is why plo games last"

Your plo example was a classic case in point. You put your money in the pot with way the best of it and lost. This is OK. This should indeed be welcomed in a sense. Of course you should have bet the pot on the flop and the call preflop is slightly marginal but by and large you should be delighted with the action, unconcerned with the result. If your money sweeps in with you a big favourite then that is fine, the GOds of Poker decide who wins.

As I pointed out in my post, not all big bet games are created equal - PLOH will have MUCH more variance than PLO8b and hence you will live and die by the sword accordingly. This is why I dont play it online although I am sure that from my live experience I am better than 99% of the players online - I just don't want the variance.

I find your final comment puzzling. I stressed that you should be looking for "big favourite" opportunities and absolutely not making marginal calls. None of the situations you have described have been at all marginal. In both cases you have been a MASSIVE money favourite. But you lost. [censored] happens /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

All I would suggest is that you (a) just play plo8b or (b) play ploh v v v tight. In the case of (b) you will be able to still grind out a win, but it would be dull as dust. A bit like playing plo8b /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Finally, to answer your "when would I win it back question" I feel I have answered that here and also in the thread about expectation in big bet games. You should be making 20-40 bucks an hours in 1-2 blind games (10-20x BB). It will take X times that to win your money back.

GL

Dave, thank you very much for the sage advice. I have just re-read it for the 4th time.

What you say makes Great sense. What I HAVN'T known is when I put a big bet (or call one) into a pot, how big or small a favorite I might be. I play online everyday, PL OM hi & hi lo and am holding my own. I have just recieved Ciaffone's No-Pot Limit book, his Omaha book will be here Mon. Hopefully this will help. I have an illness and can't play 'live' poker anymore so I play online, PL OM hi & and hilo. Games seem to be slow lately, perhaps they are drying up. That's my point about taking the '1 hand' big loss. For example, I will often release top set with no NUT redraw other than the 10 card out for FHouse, if someone makes the big bet on the turn with a likely straight or flush...I think I need @ 3.5 to 1 to correctly make this call and NEVER get it. THUS it seems foolish to EVER pot it with a set and no nut (or close) redraw AND the nut redraws are very rare. So Dave, I make a "underpot" bet on the flop (probably giving THEM the right price!)with a set and if I get a good/safe card on the turn then I'll pot it, the thinking id I'll make THEM call a big bet with ONE to come to make their wrap or flush. Would Finally like your opinion on this. Of course unless the game is jam up (rare) or we are all in, they rarely call with 1 to come.
Lastly, can you recommend a book on OM hilo PL that may apply to online games?

Very much appreciate your advice, thank you it's very kind.

Brian

[Big Dave D]

>Dave, thank you very much for the sage advice. I have just re-read it for the 4th time.

Not so sure about sage, but ty anyway /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<snipped stuff on playing hands like trips vs draws>

This is one of the reasons I dont play this game online. I played a lot of PLO over a period of 6 years b4 I ever played the game online. It is very very different. A lot of these has he/hasnt he calls and bets are, to my mind, determined by the "intangibles" of poker, such as body language, habit, betting patterns, tells etc. Its a big part of live play. And of course does not exist at all online, plus many players are complete maniacs playing the game like its texas holdem ie going allin with poor flushes, never passing big pairs etc. That's why my advice is to play v v tight but v aggressive when you have the best of it. Or just play plo8b. Or take up limit poker, which I have finally started to get the hang of. This doesnt mean that these games arent beatable, just that you should expect big swings and play tight.

In terms of how to play top trips vs a draw, some players like to wait for the turn b4 "getting busy", others prefer putting the money in on the flop. Again its a player dependent propostion which is why the online element works against the game. I would be inclined to get busy on the flop simply because so many bad players may be betting two pairs and worse trips. But this is going to increase your variance /forums/images/icons/frown.gif This also illustrates why position is so important in PLO, because if you are playing most of your hands in later positions, as you will inevitably be doing if you are playing tighter in early positions, then you will be able to see how the hand is progressing b4 the action comes to you and see whether it might be best to get allin on the flop or wait for the turn.

The Omaha book by Ciaffone and the Ciaffone/Reuben book will both be a great help.

In terms of figuring out the maths, Bob explains that and u can alway use the site http://www.twodimes.net/poker/

>Lastly, can you recommend a book on OM hilo PL that may apply to online games?

No. There arent any. Look up some of my posts on rgp using google, my sig is the same there, if you are interested in some of the other views i have expressed. The Iceman ones are especially good, imho. Feel free to challenge me on any of the guff, but please do it here and not there /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

>Very much appreciate your advice, thank you it's very kind.

You're very welcome. It helps that I dont play those games online anymore /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

GL

Dave...I just want to 'sincerely' thank you for your time and great help. You are a real asset to this forum and I for one, really appreciate your generosity. I will apply all that you have been kind enough to share with me.

Ciaffone's books came today, if I can get used to the straight draws and when they are NUT straights ie not #2 or 3 straights, I'll be ok. Having a hard time getting used to that. 25 years of holdem is part of the problem.

Here's a beat(?) Dave I'd like you to comment on please, then I'll leave you alone /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

PL OM HI online..everbody but me ($100) has @ $200 plus.

Me on button with JhJc10h10c dbl suited. I call a $6 to go raise, 5 other callers.

Flop: 10 3c 5c. Up front leads out with $8. 3 callers, I pot it for near all in. Get caller on button, then opener comes over top with $200 raise (I think I'm loving this EXCEPT I'm all in)...

Turn, off suite ace. (everyone is all in)

Riv, blank no pair or club, I lose to a wheel( nice pot)

IF Dave I had not been all in on the turn, this hand that I THINK I couldnt get away from could have cost me $500 (that's what the wheel had).

1. Please comment on it, my play and anything else you wish. (it's an example of the big loss when you feel you have the best hand and SHOULD make the big bet.

2. Finally, is there ANY way to recognize in the "heat of battle" a GOOD straight draw..ie not just a wrap but a NUT DRAW? Having time knowing if I'm in trouble.

Again Dave, many thanks for your unselfishness.

[Big Dave D]

Brian, flattery will get you everywhere :-)

>Ciaffone's books came today
Study them, they are a great head start. He also has a great section on figuring out odds and the value of str8/wrap draws

>Here's a beat(?) Dave I'd like you to comment on please, then I'll leave you alone
No need to leave me alone, its fun to b off RGP!

>Me on button with JhJc10h10c dbl suited. I call a $6 to go raise, 5 other callers.
In live play, with bigger stacks, this can be a variance hand to raise with.

<snipped flop of top trips and flush draw, losing to str8>
Great. Exactly the kind of hand you should be playing in this kind of game

<1. Please comment on it...>
You played the hand well. A phrase a good cash player I know uses (better than me /forums/images/icons/smile.gif is "putting your money in correctly". I find this a useful phrase for thinking about a hand, i.e. did the siutuation warrant the action. In your case it certainly did. You were just unlucky. As I said in an earlier post, use twodimes online to calculate the odds when you are unsure. This is made much easier as you can just download the hand history and cut'n'paste the appropriate hands into the calculator.

<2. Finally, is there ANY way to recognize in the "heat of battle" a GOOD straight draw..ie not just a wrap but a NUT DRAW? Having time knowing if I'm in trouble.>
As I said, the Ciaffone books have good sections on this. Understanding how a wrap (cards on both sides of the board) is better than just a bigger draw (all on one side) is important. An easy guide to whether the draw is going to be a nut draw or not is that you want your drawing cards to be higher then the board. For example, you have jt97 and the board shows 983 - this is better than having t976. It also shows that if you want to play single gappers, they are better lower than higher.

Gl

Dave, again thank you very much. You are an enormous help. I will use you as my Role Model.

Really enjoying Bob's books, it has changed my game already. Can you please try and tell me HOW to get on the RPG? I have aol and by typing it in I get some goofy list of questions, I know it's not RPG, I've seen it. Maybe Dave you can tell me what to do to get on. I have aol & compuserve.

Regardless, I can't thank you enough for your unselfish help.

Brian

[Big Dave D]

No problem!

To access rgp through a web based interface use http://www.recpoker.com/ for a day-to-day interface.

TO search the archives use google...heres a link http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.gambling.poker
Use the search box or click on the "advanced search" link to look at the archives. Be warned....poker is v much a minority topic on rgp!

(You could also find it under the aol newsgroups under rec.gambling.poker but my recollection is that the newsgroup interface in aol fairly much sucks.)

Anyway, say hi next time ure online...I play mostly the limit hilo at Stars at the moment, with some spells at Paradise too.

GL