Impetus: Play for value and give villian chance to declare their hand?

[AA suited]

I don't have the hand history in front of me.

1st hand of SnG. No reads. Everyone has 1k chips. I am UTG and have AK. I bet out 50. 2 callers plus blinds.

Flop = 4 9 k (2 tone)

I have tptk. Checked to me. Using impetus, I check. Button bets 3/4 pot. i call. everyone else folds.

turn = blank

i check. button bets 1/2 pot.

should i check/raise? if no, why just check/call??

river = 3rd card in suit (flush now possible)

i check, button bets pot.

Has he delcared his hand and I fold???

[Rolen]

If you put him on a flush draw you should probably ck/raise flop unless you know he's not gonna accept free cards - in this case, ckraise turn. If you've got him on a flush draw there's no way you want to call his turn bet. I'm not sure I can fold this at the river, it's quite possible he's put you on a weak K and is trying to value-bet KQ, KJ, maybe AK.

I have a feeling though that the reason you remember the flop to be K9x is because he had K9? Just a guess

[jah0550]

I don't mind the call on the flop, but you need to raise on the turn. If he is on a flush draw, you can probably get him off of it with a pot sized check raise on the turn. Make him pay for his draw. Since you just called the turn, I'd fold on the river too, because of the flush out there. All of his bets seem to me like a flush draw(ie. not betting the pot, only betting 1/2 or so of it). I can guarantee you are way ahead on the flop and turn, but way behind on the river. Check/raise the turn here to put him to the test for his draw.

[AA suited]

well, with his bet on the turn, i dont think he is on a flush draw. flush drawers would have drooled over the chance to take a free river card.

but his pot bet on the river confused the hell out of me.

Did i play impetus right? if not, what did i do wrong??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jah0550]

I would try throwing in a raise on the turn to see where you are at. Definately the right play on folding on the river though. Try raising on either the flop or the turn to see where you are at. Just my opinion though. What was the buy-in? I usually play at the 50s, so that is where I'm coming from.

[Scuba Chuck]

(Learning postflop play - interested in critiques of my analysis)

Part of what I see here is the lack of discussion on what range of hands do you put villain on? Do you think he has Kx? (like KQ, KJ) or two pair like K9? Do you think he has 9x, like T9 or J9?

The flop pot is t250 when you check. I assume villain is betting out t175 chips on the flop, making it t425 and headsup. So you have to question yourself right here. Would I be satisified with just these 425 chips, or do I want more. If you think you want more, then call. If you're satisified with these 425 chips, I think here is the first check-raise, and might be the best move. If he calls, you have quite a bit more info to consider.

On the turn, pot is t425. You check, villain bets (est. 200). Pot is now t625, you have TPTK. IMO, at this stage your decision is now. You need to check-raise here. Another card from here really is too risky, and t625 is a nice pot to win. Furthermore, you really want to know where you stand. How many chips would you call on the river? Add that number to your call here and raise. If he calls, that makes the river a lot more interesting.

I am a terrible post flop player. So keep that in mind. It's always easier to read the HH after than to play the game. I'm learning (the hardway) that calling it down is painful, and less profitable.

Now on the river, the way you played it, I think you have to call. The problem with the turn bet is that villain might have KQ (and you have him beat) or middle pair but it's part of his now completed flush draw. IMO, the way you played it, you've forced him to push allin even if he has KQ.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I would try throwing in a raise on the turn to see where you are at. Definately the right play on folding on the river though. Try raising on either the flop or the turn to see where you are at. Just my opinion though. What was the buy-in? I usually play at the 50s, so that is where I'm coming from.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, 50+5.

i was trying the "impetus" method, where i think i'm ahead but out of position. I get more $ if i check and let him bet/bluff into me.

on the downside, i risk him hitting his draw.

the more i think about it, the more i think he declared his hand as tpgk with his turn bet. and i should have check/raised then. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jah0550]

Call me crazy, but I just hate to check/call down to the river. This is how to lose a big pot rather than win a small one. The only time where I can use an "impetus" play is when I hit a set on the flop. That is a situation where a check/call would be correct. Even if the villian makes a straight or flush, you still have outs on the river. In that situation, I'd try it, but with TPTK you need to be raising. Maybe not necessarily on the flop, but definately on the turn. Hell the pot is already about about 1/2 of your stack. I'd say take it down on the turn. I have one steadfast rule that I try to adhere to: Winning small pots is always better than losing big ones.(Obvious, I know, but just listen to it next time you are trying to build a pot)

[Phil Van Sexton]

I'm not sure the math adds up. By the river, there's like 800 in the pot and you each have like 600 left. On the river, you say "button bets pot". Huh?

Anyway, the pot is 250 on the flop. If you plan on calling him down and beating KQ/KJ, then you are committing to putting your whole stack in. The pot is so big to start that you will be allin by the river if he bets on all streets. This is fine, I guess. If you choose this path, you have to follow through with your plan and call the river.

I'd might checkraise allin on the flop. Definately on the turn.

The real problem is preflop. Raising to 50 UTG is not good, IMO. Calling is better. Raising 75-100 is better.

50 is such a small amount compared to the stacks that you will get multiple callers. When you do, you are playing a big pot out of position without a made hand (like AA-QQ) against several players. This is a recipe for disaster.

If you had called, you could just check/call all the way to the river and win/lose a medium sized pot.

If you had raised more, you would still get a pretty big pot, but you'd usually be up against 1 or 2 opponents (and you'd have position if they were the blinds). Now you can just bet out on any flop and hope to take it down right away.

[tricolore]

With that many people seeing a flop, I am not sure I like to use the impetus here. Checking the flop isn't necessarely bad as you can get some information on the other hands through bet/raises and potentially induce a bluff but in this case, where only the button bets, you really don't have too much information. I personnally raise here and try to get more info about his hand.

Assuming that you call the flop and check the turn, I think the bet by the button clearly tells you he has a hand. Knowing you called 3/4 pot on the turn and with blank turn, there's no way he's betting if he's on a draw --- he has to think you are going to call again so he would basically be charging himself to draw --- especially with 1/2 pot bet. The problem is that since you showed weakness so far, he could have anything from middle pair/tpgk to trips.

River bet is interesting. Since you called so far, he knows you have a hand and that you might have hit your flush and are trying to trap him. After that bet, I am a bit scared and I am probably folding too. I would be curious to know the specifics of the colors of the flop and of your cards --- could he have hit middle pair with nut flush draw? Or KQs with the flush draw again?

[The Yugoslavian]

Phil,

Do you think you'll get all of villians chips in on the turn if he's playing tpgk or another such hand that you're beating? I think there is merit to getting his chips by value calling the turn and letting him put the rest of 'em in on the river.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I have tptk. Checked to me. Using impetus, I check. Button bets 3/4 pot. i call. everyone else folds.

[/ QUOTE ]


What does this mean "using impetus"? It doesn't make any sense to me, and I wish that every 3rd hand post wouldn't use the word impetus in the title, especially in completely inappropriate situations.

Also I would bet the flop here, and if I checked and it was bet by someone else, I think that just calling is very passive and weak, especially out of position.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have tptk. Checked to me. Using impetus, I check. Button bets 3/4 pot. i call. everyone else folds.

[/ QUOTE ]


What does this mean "using impetus"? It doesn't make any sense to me, and I wish that every 3rd hand post wouldn't use the word impetus in the title, especially in completely inappropriate situations.

Also I would bet the flop here, and if I checked and it was bet by someone else, I think that just calling is very passive and weak, especially out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not actually using his betting impetus by checking, he's preserving it. I take betting impetus to be similar to initiative in chess. Something you would be *very* familiar with curtains, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

The idea would be that the OP is foregoing taking the initiative here in order to either induce his opponent into making mistakes and/or using it later in the hand @ a more important juncture.

It could be *sorta* like letting someone attack your uber-solid kingside and waiting a few more moves before seizing the intiative back ..... you may want to let your opponent continue to make offensive moves so that their defensive capabilities are limited when you finally make your counter-attack.

Yugoslav

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Phil,

Do you think you'll get all of villians chips in on the turn if he's playing tpgk or another such hand that you're beating? I think there is merit to getting his chips by value calling the turn and letting him put the rest of 'em in on the river.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't find myself in these situations very often, so I'm not quite comfortable with any of these plans.

That being said, I see a lot of people check behind on the river with TPGK or better. If he had KQ, his value bet on the river takes some real stones after the 3rd flush card comes.

For this reason, I much prefer to get the money in earlier.

He could also have some weird draw (like A9s or JTs) and I'm not going to get paid off at all if he misses on the river.

(In looking for draws, it would've been handy to know the exact suits on the flop and what the turn card was.)

[curtains]

I think the term impetus is very misused by most posters and is probably confusing the hell out of most newer posters. Also AK is not a hand to slowplay like this with 4 opponents on a K94 flop. I don't even like checking with the intention of raising, but checking with the intention of calling I really hate.

Irieguy just made one post trying to explain one concept and now every post I see that's titled "impetus" often has nothing to do with anything he said. If I was a new poster I'd wonder what the hell everyone was talking about. Also I'm not picking on the OP really, this is just the straw that broke the camels back.

Really though, let's stop using this term, its just way too confusing. The OP is slowplaying his Top pair top kicker (or using it to catch a bluff), and thats it. Both of which I think are terrible ideas in a 5 player pot.

[curtains]

By the way I have no problem with raising to 50 preflop (Nor do I have a big problem with raising more, but I personally would just make it 45-50).

[NegativeEV]

Sounds like you might be thinking that villian is aggressively playing a flush draw. If villian is on a flush draw here a CR all in on the turn is likely to get his chips in the pot. If you call the turn and the flush misses you miss value.

Sometimes your value comes from a player on a draw and you can miss out when you wait to "value-bet" the river. This point is more relevant for getting value from monster hands, but since I typed this I'm clicking submit.