Arrogance

Mikey's post about taking a break has led to some talk about arrogance. I believe the "I win, you lose" mentality that can lead to player's feeling it's good to be arrogant, rude, self aggrandizing is based on some faulty thinking. While poker is generally a negative sum game (due to rake) good players don't necesarily make money from one another. Over time, the bad/mediocre players are the real feeders. So there often are win/win situations when two good players are at a table -- and both can benefit by keeping the worse players enjoying the game and playing loose. Roy Cooke has written well about this.

Another point to consider: many players at low, mid and even high limits are playing for recreation. Often, the money matters relatively little to these people. Often, they are highly intelligent and trying to play well for recreation. Is Bill Gates a fish if he plays $3-6 hold-em (as he has been reputed to do) and drops $200? I've read the suggestion that poker pros should really consider themselves to be in the entertainment industry -- providing games for recreational players. In that context, someone grinding in a $10-20 game who thinks they are "beating" someone who makes a six figure income and plays for fun is a very limited point of view. Ultimately, the beauty of the game is that you can play hard and try to destroy your opponents within the game while still maintaining humanity, humility and civility. To choose to do otherwise probably doesn't create much edge, it just makes a statement about the type of person you are.

[JTG51]

I haven't really said much about this topic, but I'm going to jump in here. People keep saying that you should treat other players nicely, keep them happy, etc so that they stay in the game and keep playing poorly. I'm certainly not going to disagree with that, but I've got another reason.

How about the fact that embarrassing/humiliating someone just isn't the right thing to do? Going out of your way to embarrass or humiliate someone who is just playing a game makes you a jerk. Nothing more, nothing less. As MRBAA said, it probably says more about your character than anything else.

To the people that say things like, "yeah, but I can put them on tilt" I say, is that really worth it? How about some respect for your fellow human being? I think treating people decently is a lot more important that the possibility of squeezing every last dollar out of them.

If someone opens their mouth first trying to show up or embarrass someone else at the table, that's a different story. I've got no problem going out of my way to shut this person up. When someone is just there having a good time splashing around chips though, it's inexcusable.

[Uston]

Excellent post. I agree completely. The theory that being an ass can put someone on tilt and increase your win rate seems silly. You have to consider how much extra the person would lose (or save, if you make a losing player leave or play better) and how much of that money would go into your stack. Unless you're playing high stakes, it's probably a pittance. I figure that if the day comes where I'm engaging in behavior that would embarass my friends and family just to pick up a few dollars, I'll have three options: seek psychological help, quit poker, or kill myself.

[ripdog]

I used this theme to my advantage last night. The game was struggling to keep going, hanging at 8 players for most of the night. It would fluctuate up and down from 6 to 10. There was one person in the game who I think would have gotten up and left if I had value bet the river against her. If I was an arrogant ass while doing it, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that she'd have split. I play quietly and extremely tightly compared to my $3-$6 opponents, so putting the spotlight on that kind of play can only cost me money in the long run. Against an arrogant opponent, I'd have definitely value bet, so there's another reason to avoid this behavior.

[Mikey]

You are absolutely correct about belitting players and looking down on them as not being as skilled as you are, and you can figure this out sometimes within a few minutes of playing with them. But let me ask you a question and I want you to put yourself in a scenario......and I want you to be totally honest with yourself.....when viewing this...

You are playing in a 10-20. A person who has no clue what he is doing just won the last 6 out of 8 pots, you are stuck $550 for the day. Now this guy has a tower of checks in front of him.

Are you enthusiastic and exited that he's playing real loose and playing marginal hands and winning and you are sitting there wondering what the hell you have done wrong. You just missed 2 flush draws, and had a set cracked by a bigger set and your Kings got beat by a rivered 2 pair. I want to see the look on your face when all of this is going on. If you can keep the same straight face that you would when you are up $550 than when you are down, Then more power to you. But I sometimes see pros sitting down, with a look of disgust and death when some things like this occur and are they wrong. Should they sit there and smile....and don't worry when they do sit there and try to smile and I emphasize the word "try"...because most can see right through that fake smile and they are really burning up inside.

Add to all of this.....him getting up after the button and taking all those little chips with him because he's going to miss his bus.... and he doesn't want to be late.

How is your attitude now?
I'll tell you how it is...."you don't want to talk about it now, now's not the time" You'll say things like, "Damm that guy got so *($*(@ing LUCKY!!, I can't believe he didn't keep playing."

Answer this question just when this type of a situation occurs. Don't disassociate yourself from the question...make believe you really are the guy who lost...how do you feel? What do you think of the guy who just won who has that ear to ear smile?



As far as me being arrogant, again this statement is taken way out of context, first of all only some of you have met me on here, and know how I truly am as a person. I'm sorry that I get upset when I lose or make a loose call at table. I want to make the best decision. I WANT TO WIN!!!

[Fitz]

In your example, I'm certain I'd be upset. None of us like to lose; if we did, we wouldn't be playing poker. However, I have been in almost that exact situation, and I've managed to keep my composure. Was I little Mary sunshine? No, but I wasn't Atilla the Hun either.

The way I see it, there are two issues in this discussion. One, how do we wish to behave with others, and two, what is for the best in the game we play. I am a winning recreational player, and I don't like to play at a tense unfriendly table. Part of the reason I'm there, is to enjoy myself. I don't like to deal with angry, upset and ugly people(I get enough of that in the business world).

I also appreciate those players who sit down at a game and don't mind if they lose a couple of racks as long as they have a good time. What upsets me is when a player who should know better demeans one of these people and runs them off before they have their fun and leave their chips. What these players don't understand is that if that fun loving donor didn't hit hit 3,2 or even 1 outter occasionally, he would quit chasing them, and that would be bad for those of us who benefit from this kind of play.

We are all human, and we all have outbursts occasionally and say or do things we regret. However, in the games I play, it seems to be the same small group of players who have 90+ percent of these outbursts.

In an extreme example, I saw a dealer do it once. I caught pocket aces; I got into a preflop raising war with a newbie. We capped it preflop and I flopped a set. We went to war on the flop and turn. The newbie went all in at the river and reached into his pocket and pulled out a roll of hundreds. The dealer looked at him and said, "As much as he'd like me to let you rebuy, you can't add chips in the middle of a hand." We tabled our cards and my aces beat his AK. The dealer laughed out loud at the kid and made a derisive comment. That is when it got really sad. The kid got made and left instead of buying back in which I'm sure he would have done if the dealer hadn't made fun of him. I didn't have anything against the kid, and I didn't want to take his meal money, but if he was willing to spend that much on recreation, I'd rather have a shot at it instead of seeing some slot machine get it.

Good luck all,

Fitz

[JTG51]

Mikey, sometimes it's just not your day. Sometimes, you play your best poker ever so that you only lose a rack instead of a rack and a half or two racks. If you can't accept that losing in unavoidable sometimes, you should find a new hobby.

It doesn't make me happy when a guy plays terribly, takes all my chips, then quits, but it happens. If you really are a good player, you'll get them back eventually, plus interest.

Tommy Angelo wrote a great article about keeping your cool when things don't go well. Like most of his articles, it's very funny, but it also illustrates the point beautifully. I hope he doesn't mind me linking it here.

Anyone that hasn't already, go read it. It's well worth it.

Tommy's article (http://www.catbirdtommy.com/If%20Only%20I%20Could%20Bottle%20This.htm)

I think learning to lose is important, and applies here. I don't play $10-$20 because losing that much money would be too upsetting/make me feel too guilty. But I've lost $250 in a night playing $1-5, and I was steamed, disappointed but certainly not devastated or out of control. I'm not Johnny Moss, playing for every cent I have with a shotgun under my chair to help me get out with my winnings. I'm a recreational player, playing within my means and trying to improve my game. For a professional player, I do think the emotions are different. In my work, I've taken some savage "beats" and I haven't lashed out. You have to try to learn from the experience and keep pushing to do your best. For a winning pro, getting sucked out on regularly is a frustrating but predictable part of work. If he really is winning, it shouldn't be that hard to keep it in perspective.

MRBAA,
I totally agree with your point of view on this matter. Much has been written in Poker Literature about how you gauge how "Good" you are with regard to the game. Much of your skill at poker can be attributed to the lack of skill with regard to your opponents. Nothing will determine you success more than your game selection. There are a number of less skilled poker players out there who find a game with those they can "beat" and become regular winners. It is great for your ego to compete and "beat" the better games. I often want a challenge @ the table. However, by in large I look for games with favorable conditions that I can exploit. While in that game the last thing that you want to do is humiliate or belittle an opponent. This is bad buisness number one, and simply does not speak highly of you as a person. It is alot about how you handle success in life, and the Poker Table.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Mikey,
You described a situation all of us have encountered dozens of times. A no clue player gets lucky, beats the helll out of us, and leaves. You ask how do we feel?
Of course, we feel bad, but successful poker requires controlling our feelings, not yielding to them. As for the fish who escaped, so what? HE'LL BE BACK, AND HE'LL LOSE THOSE CHIPS, PLUS INTEREST.
To be a winning player you MUST focus on the long term and control your feelings about short term fluctuations.
Look at the way casinos treat people who win huge jackpots. Do they get mad at them? Hell no, they put their pictures on billboards and TV. They know that happy winners are the best advertizing they can get. Your excessive need to win every time is crippling you. If the weak players never won, they wouldn't play. They are our "customers," and no sensible businessman insults his customers.
If you want a game that lets the best players win all the time, take up chess. You'll beat the weaker players, but you won't make any money. Hardly anyone gambles on chess BECAUSE there is no luck involved.
You have a simple choice to make. You can accept poker as it is, with all the frustrating short term swings, or make yourself miserable about the swings that make it possible for you to win money.
Regards,
Al

If you want the fish to return it's in your interest to be friendly to them. If you have reason to expect to get the money back later that shouldn't be too hard to do. If you want to steam a little because they want to "catch their bus" take a walk and steam in private. Al explained very well how the lucky fish winners are the best advertising for your game that there is so just smile and say "tell 'em where you got it".

The nature of poker being what it is, it's best that you don't take the game (or yourself) too seriously.

I'm mostly a lurker but I just have to wade into this conversation. I agree with Al, this will happen many, many times over your poker career and you gotta learn to roll with the punches.

I had this conversation with my son and daughter. They are both goaltenders in hockey and what I stress to them is to *never* and I mean NEVER let the opposition see that they have gotten to you.

Smile, say *nice hand* and move on.

Just my 2c

Thunder