where do you draw the line?

[Page Jacobson]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1735)
SB (t2100)
Hero (t2090)
UTG (t2075)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t2100 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1890 (All-In).

Flop: (t4190) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t4190) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t4190) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t4190
SB showed KQ off suit and I finished 4th

I was obviously a little impatient here but sb had just stolen the blinds in the previous pot and I was getting tired of just giving up. What are some keys for playing when only 4 are left?

[TheUsher]

Calling a 10xBB all-in with QJs = bad bad bad. Even from a routine blind stealer you're just asking to get in trouble here. Better to be the pusher than the caller. /images/graemlins/smile.gif If this was Level 7 or something and you made this call, you're still looking to gamble it up for 1st but it would be a little better than this situation.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I was obviously a little impatient here but sb had just stolen the blinds in the previous pot and I was getting tired of just giving up. What are some keys for playing when only 4 are left?

[/ QUOTE ]

A little impatient? A little?

One the keys is don't call an all-in without a hand that has some showdown value on its own unless you have to. QJ has extremely limited showdown value.

Another rule is to avoid getting impatient when you have 4 roughly equal stacks on the bubble, and the blinds are low enough you have no reason to hurry.

One more thing... I have problems with this one too. Don't assume your opponent doesn't have a hand just because s/he stole the blinds last time. It is possible to get a hand two deals in a row.

[Rolen]

Imagine 4 of you sitting round a table 4 handed. Each of you is stealing all over the place, and you're all getting annoyed with eachother and determined to stop giving up without a fight. Imagine how fast someone's gonna get knocked out, leaving the other 3 ITM. FAST. Well, I just described a party poker tournament at the lower stakes. All you gotta do is wait for the people who are 'determined to show that damn raiser they can't get away with it forever' to make their call, and collect at least 20% of the prize pool!

In a word, patience. A lot of people believe I take this patience 'on the bubble' (4 handed) to the extreme, and in some cases I probably do, but at the lower levels there are just so many people willing to call a raiser simply because they are 'getting too confident' to make calling much 4 handed worthwhile.

Understand that i'm not advocating a tight raising range of hands, but I am definately advicating a tight calling range, and certainly much tighter than JQs. Let impatience be something that happens to other people, you sound like you know you made the wrong move by calling here. Just gotta play the game the way you know you should!

[raptor517]

one word sums up this. and its not holla. its yuck. yuck yuck yuck. ugh. holla

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine 4 of you sitting round a table 4 handed. Each of you is stealing all over the place, and you're all getting annoyed with eachother and determined to stop giving up without a fight. Imagine how fast someone's gonna get knocked out, leaving the other 3 ITM. FAST. Well, I just described a party poker tournament at the lower stakes. All you gotta do is wait for the people who are 'determined to show that damn raiser they can't get away with it forever' to make their call, and collect at least 20% of the prize pool!

In a word, patience. A lot of people believe I take this patience 'on the bubble' (4 handed) to the extreme, and in some cases I probably do, but at the lower levels there are just so many people willing to call a raiser simply because they are 'getting too confident' to make calling much 4 handed worthwhile.

Understand that i'm not advocating a tight raising range of hands, but I am definately advicating a tight calling range, and certainly much tighter than JQs. Let impatience be something that happens to other people, you sound like you know you made the wrong move by calling here. Just gotta play the game the way you know you should!

[/ QUOTE ]

In a lot of the 50's that I've played with the situation you described above I'd say it's even tougher to play as with everyone else stealing, you have to do the same. Not even counting your hand into consideration here it'll be a pain when this goes to Level 8 and 9 when you HAVE to steal just to survive. Sometimes it makes me wonder why I don't even try to play the 100's when bubble play is crazy as hell like this. Yes yes I understand that the limits are entirely different, but just saying. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Page Jacobson]

Thanks for the advice. I'm learning a lot reading these posts.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1735)
SB (t2100)
Hero (t2090)
UTG (t2075)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t2100 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1890 (All-In).

Flop: (t4190) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t4190) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t4190) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t4190
SB showed KQ off suit and I finished 4th

I was obviously a little impatient here but sb had just stolen the blinds in the previous pot and I was getting tired of just giving up. What are some keys for playing when only 4 are left?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is certainly the wrong idea.

Here's something that may surprise you. Even if you read SB's push as being any two cards at all, you should still fold. Surprised? Here are some numbers to consider:

http://sitngo-analyzer.com/poker/QJs-call.PNG

The reason is that 40% of the time you lose the hand and are out and win nothing. That's not a fair shake given your position at this point relative to everyone else. There is no desperation here yet at all. Patience, patience, patience with your calls.

The absolute weakest hand which even breaks even by this kind of analysis is KJs, but you're not doing bad at all to wait for at least AT to make a call in this position.

Winners are 66+,ATo+,A9s+,KJs+. Working in a small buffer of safety if you feel you are better than the other players leaves 66+,AJo+,A9s+,KQs as your only calling hands here, and that's only if you think SB is pushing any two cards at all, even 32o.

Putting him on cards that aren't crap like: 22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,JTo,J9s+ reduces your calling range to 99+,AKo,AQs.

Pushing, however, that's another matter...

eastbay

[TruFloridaGator]

Is there a word worse than yuck? Cuz it would be it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[raptor517]

when in doubt, just fold and push the next hand you are first in. hah. i think that is always better than calling in a questionable spot. holla

[TheUsher]

I don't have your program yet eastbay (only reason why is because I don't have paypal/neteller), but would the calculations change dramatically if this were Level 7 and on? Same stacks/positions/etc but just different blinds.

[Rolen]

I really do understand why you made this call, it's the 'this bastard thinks he's REALLY clever stealing with crap every hand, let's see how he likes THIS! He thinks he can outsmart me?!?! *call*!'

Of course, the truth is that when 4 handed, 1 person is gonna catch a better run of cards than everyone else. He's gonna look like he's trying to outplay you when in fact he's just getting lucky, like one of you is bound to. Then you make allowances 'i'll call just this once, I know it's the wrong play but it'll shut HIM up', and of course you make this 'exception' every time you find yourself in the situation. Also, it's playing into the raisers' hands since he almost certainly is raising with good cards every time (again, only at the lower levels).

My solution for this was to think of the rest of the players as playing PURELY their cards, raise with good hands, fold with bad ones. Not only is this not too far from the truth at the lower levels, it helps get over the 'i'm not having him outsmart me' thing, cause he's just playing exactly what he's dealt! I also started multi-tabling my tournaments, which helped too. Try the first and, if you think you're up to it, the second too.

Best of luck!

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have your program yet eastbay (only reason why is because I don't have paypal/neteller), but would the calculations change dramatically if this were Level 7 and on? Same stacks/positions/etc but just different blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it changes significantly.

Let's say it's 200/400. Now the breakeven range is twice as wide: 55+,A7o+,A3s+,KTo+,K8s+,QJo,JTs+ for a read of any two.

For a more realistic read of "not total crap" like 22+,A2+,K4o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,JTo,J9s+, however, you're back up to 88+,AJo+,ATs+.

eastbay

[raptor517]

it wouldnt change dramatically, but it would turn into a slightly more favorable situation for calling with JQs. its still pretty terrible i think though. meh.