Simple preflop question [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

tiltaholic

03-31-2005, 07:50 PM

Villian is like 24/20 and seems to fold in response to small amounts of aggression postflop (though is initially aggressive himself postflop).

1/2 game 10-handed.

I post in the CO. Blinds are tight and tight.

folded to villian in MP2. he raises. shocker. MP3 folds. I call one more in the CO with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

overzealous?

(will post my thoughts much later tonight or tomorrow)

davelin

03-31-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is like 24/20 and seems to fold in response to small amounts of aggression postflop (though is initially aggressive himself postflop).

1/2 game 10-handed.

I post in the CO. Blinds are tight and tight.

folded to villian in MP2. he raises. shocker. MP3 folds. I call one more in the CO with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

overzealous?

(will post my thoughts much later tonight or tomorrow)

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you consider a 3-bet pre-flop?

Nfinity

03-31-2005, 08:23 PM

Kxs are not very great IMO. The fact that the blinds are tight and might fold to this raise brings the suitedness value almost down to nil. With your line on villian I'd be more apt to raise with hands I'd usually call here(Broadways, Middle Pairs) but not call with hands I'd usually fold.

MrWookie47

03-31-2005, 08:51 PM

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue2/Miller0205.html

His highness discusses playing Q3s in your spot, although he had cold callers. It's marginal, but I think, assuming good postflop play, you can at least make it into a break even play.

Aaron W.

03-31-2005, 09:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is like 24/20 and seems to fold in response to small amounts of aggression postflop (though is initially aggressive himself postflop).

1/2 game 10-handed.

I post in the CO. Blinds are tight and tight.

folded to villian in MP2. he raises. shocker. MP3 folds. I call one more in the CO with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

overzealous?

(will post my thoughts much later tonight or tomorrow)

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like a position raise, so I like a 3-bet here. You just need to keep your ego out if he keeps playing back at you postflop. None of this crap: "He's *NOT* going to bet me out of this pot".

chris_a

03-31-2005, 09:21 PM

From a pure EV perspective, you can probably turn a profit on this, but I think it's very very slight.

If I'm playing just this table, and the raiser misplays hands postflop, I'll play.

If either the player is decent postflop, or I'm multitabling, I'll drop this reduce the number of clicks and to put attention into other hands.

It's right on the edge for me, but I'm probably one of the tighter preflop players on here. I wouldn't be suprised if people lean towards calling this.

tiltaholic

03-31-2005, 11:56 PM

wow. people advocating a 3-bet. interesting.

so. my thought process preflop:
villian is clearly raising light, and since he is first in in MP, could be raising a huge range of hands here. the blinds are going to fold no matter what (probably). i didn't really even think about a 3-bet at the time but it doesn't seem like such as bad proposition. now just calling, i'm getting better than 2:1. so i call...

blinds fold. FLOP: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

an almost ideal flop, no?

Villian bets. (as expected). Hero ??

GrunchCan

04-01-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider a 3-bet pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same thought.

MrWookie47

04-01-2005, 01:03 AM

Just because he's rasising loose doesn't mean he's not packing AA. I think you can call, but I don't think a three bet with a marginal holding is right.

On your flop, I think you've got to raise. No sense in employing WA/WB or something, since he's probably got one or two overcards at least. If he makes it three bets, I'm not sure yet if you call down or fold the turn UI.

FreakDaddy

04-01-2005, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is like 24/20 and seems to fold in response to small amounts of aggression postflop (though is initially aggressive himself postflop).

1/2 game 10-handed.

I post in the CO. Blinds are tight and tight.

folded to villian in MP2. he raises. shocker. MP3 folds. I call one more in the CO with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

overzealous?

(will post my thoughts much later tonight or tomorrow)

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you consider a 3-bet pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that hero get on the dance floor and make some moves?? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Shake that ass now!

davelin

04-01-2005, 03:00 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets...

NAU_Player

04-01-2005, 03:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (9.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets...

[/ QUOTE ]

BB folds, CO calls?

davelin

04-01-2005, 03:04 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Aaron W.

04-01-2005, 03:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just because he's rasising loose doesn't mean he's not packing AA. I think you can call, but I don't think a three bet with a marginal holding is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

That looks a lot like monsters under the bed. I'm for the 3-bet not only because he's raising light preflop, but the read includes weak postflop play. You're helping to set up a situation where you take the pot down easily on the flop or maybe the turn. Running over weak postflop players is the best way to go.

If he were a LAG postflop, calling is better because you'll want to catch something moderate before making it expensive.

tiltaholic

04-01-2005, 11:07 AM

davelin-
similar type of villian?

zuluking

04-01-2005, 11:20 AM

Against a 24/20 I fold. Against a 40+/20+ I call. Against a 60+/30+, I 3-bet. Hope that helps.

davelin

04-01-2005, 11:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]

davelin-
similar type of villian?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't remember, I think I just knew that he was a tight-ish type player who was perfectly capable of steal-blinding in the CO. Raised to isolate and give myself some folding equity.

tiltaholic

04-01-2005, 11:23 AM

hey zulu-

i sort of see what you are saying - do you feel that the range of raising hands between a 24/20 and 40+/20+ is sufficiently different to make K6s profitable? or is your comment more towards the relative likelyhood that their postflop play will suck based on their preflop tendancies?

GrunchCan

04-01-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard against all but the tighter or weaker PF raisers who aren't likely to steal from the CO.

At least, I hope its standard b/c I do this all the time.

zuluking

04-01-2005, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hey zulu-

i sort of see what you are saying - do you feel that the range of raising hands between a 24/20 and 40+/20+ is sufficiently different to make K6s profitable? or is your comment more towards the relative likelyhood that their postflop play will suck based on their preflop tendancies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its so easy to outplay a 40+/20+ postflop that sometimes I'm tempted to call with almost anything in that position. Against a 60+, if I'm on the button or in the CO and there are no other players, I'll will play just about anything, usually re-raising.

davelin

04-01-2005, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
6 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard against all but the tighter or weaker PF raisers who aren't likely to steal from the CO.

At least, I hope its standard b/c I do this all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Are your blind-stealing-stealing standards the same as your blind-stealing standards in this position?

MrWookie47

04-01-2005, 11:45 AM

I'm not suggesting that I think he's actually packing AA. I'm saying that with loose raising standards, he might have anything from A2o or worse all the way up to AA. At 20% PFR, that's twice as many hands as the average 2+2er. Against half of those, we're a pretty big dog, while against the other half or so, it's a more fair fight. I think we're OK to call, but I don't think we're ahead enough to 3-bet here. Given a higher stil PFR%, then 3-betting is more profitable.

einbert

04-01-2005, 11:47 AM

I might even three-bet.

I think folding would be quite bad.

davelin

04-01-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not suggesting that I think he's actually packing AA. I'm saying that with loose raising standards, he might have anything from A2o or worse all the way up to AA. At 20% PFR, that's twice as many hands as the average 2+2er. Against half of those, we're a pretty big dog, while against the other half or so, it's a more fair fight. I think we're OK to call, but I don't think we're ahead enough to 3-bet here. Given a higher stil PFR%, then 3-betting is more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now we're looking to spend 2 SBs to win 4.5 (5.5 assuming Villain will most likely call). We don't have to be the overwhelming favorite to win this hand, the read of the opponent post-flop makes this 3-bet much easier to execute IMO.

MrWookie47

04-01-2005, 12:33 PM

OK, against the weak opponent, I see your point. Three-betting makes him one SB's worth more likely to fold.

jojobinks

04-01-2005, 12:45 PM

overzealous, yes. haven't read the thread, though.

tiltaholic

04-01-2005, 12:56 PM

So. To recap.

I have K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the CO after I post.
A slightly loose, very aggressive preflop villian who is somewhat aggressive but very weak postflop openraises in MP2, MP3 folds, I call. all fold.

2 players to the flop for 5.5 small bets.

FLOP 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Villian bets. I RAISE. Villian calls.

(4BB) TURN J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Villian checks. I bet.

thoughts? routine "continuation bet"?

my reads. he's aggressive enough that he 3-bets a mid pocket overpair on the flop. i think. so he must have unpaired high cards. so, on the turn, does he have a jack?
will he check raise if he does? i say it is unlikely.
will he check call if he has a jack? i say it is highly likely.
will he fold 2 unpaired non-jacks? i say extremely likely.

therefore, i bet and plan to fold to a raise or check through on the river UI. goot?

GrunchCan

04-01-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are your blind-stealing-stealing standards the same as your blind-stealing standards in this position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still forumating my plan on this.