turn decision

[bicyclekick]

Two fish limp (ep - 39/6/.56 mp- 37/11/1.73) and and I limp in the CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif

schneids completes his sb, bb who is 28/17/1.79 overaggro donk checks his bb.

flop 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif
schneids checks, bb bets, ep folds, mp calls, I raise, schneids folds, bb calls, mp calls.

Turn 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
bb checks, mp comes to life and bets, hero?

[brick]

calls. because ...
-you have postion and want him to bluff the river.
-You want BB to over call with a hand that is almost dead.
-If he has a 9 then you are sometime (60%?) outkicked.
-You gain equity becaue of the flush draw, but not too much right? 8/46 = 17%. This makes up for the times you are outkicked.
So when you raise, he can dump trash and 3-bet when he has a 9. Theses seems only slighly +EV.

It seems the most money can be made from the BB, or continued bluffing by MP.

[worm33]

I dont really think theres any play but calling. Seems pretty simple, the turn bettor either has 55 or 66 or a4 so he either has 2 outs or is drawing dead. BB might call with a j4 or q4 or something like that. The only times that raising can be correct is when the bb has a straight draw that he will prolly call the turn for 2 bets with and u have in bad shape.

[TStoneMBD]

1/2 stakes should be posted in the micro-limit forum.

thanks.

[bicyclekick]

this was $50/100, not from schneider's/sfer's donk fest last night or whenever that was.

[skp]

13 small bets in the pot when it is your turn to act.

If that's a puny pot in this game to you, then call. if it's a big pot, raise.

You no doubt have MP beat. It's unlikely bb has trips as he did not 3 bet the flop and you said he was aggro. he may have a flush draw too and not raising gives up some in that scenario but you make up for it when he doesn't have a flush draw and is drawing dead. If he has a straight draw, he might catch his 6 outer for 1 big bet when he may have have folded for two if you raised.

That's where the small pot/big pot thing comes in to consideration.

[stoxtrader]

I don't like a raise.

for me this is a call.

[goofball]

call and raise the river.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
this was $50/100, not from schneider's/sfer's donk fest last night or whenever that was.

[/ QUOTE ]


i am not sfer. i am white /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sthief09]

same response as in SS. I'm hoping for some feedback on my preflop comment, becuase I really do think it's an easy raise against those guys

and I would call there. you don't fear any cards, you'd hate BB to fold there, and the guy betting out is representing a 9, which would most likely be A9-89. I would consider raising the river though, especially if he's the type of guy that will get scared with Q9 or K9 on the river, but will do it on the turn.

[surfdoc]

I really can't see this being a clear cut raise preflop. You have one LAG and one loose passive donk. Neither of these guys is dropping their small pocket pair or overcards or whatever to big bad BK's bet on the flop. It will be messy the times you miss the flop having no showdown value which will be more often than not.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see this being a clear cut raise preflop. You have one LAG and one loose passive donk. Neither of these guys is dropping their small pocket pair or overcards or whatever to big bad BK's bet on the flop. It will be messy the times you miss the flop having no showdown value which will be more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]


you have a good hand
they probably don't have good hands
*you steal the button*
you gain initiative
Schneids is the SB

I don't like to let the button limp after 4 limpers.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see this being a clear cut raise preflop. You have one LAG and one loose passive donk. Neither of these guys is dropping their small pocket pair or overcards or whatever to big bad BK's bet on the flop. It will be messy the times you miss the flop having no showdown value which will be more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]


you have a good hand
they probably don't have good hands
*you steal the button*
you gain initiative
Schneids is the SB

I don't like to let the button limp after 4 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

All good points. Here are a few counters. Keep in mind this may be different in the Party 15. (I am not sure where the posted hand came from)

The button or blinds may find a real hand and then its 3 bets
These guys don't care about initiative and will CR the flop or turn which will be very uncomfy when you have dust
Limp reraises from the LAG not that uncommon
Since when is J9s that "good"
Schneids is a donator
<font color="white"> not really </font>

[sthief09]

The button or blinds may find a real hand and then its 3 bets

don't raise tens or ATS there either, or AJo UTG, because someone might wake up with a real hand. that should not be a consideration. as of now, the 3 players left to act have random hands.


These guys don't care about initiative and will CR the flop or turn which will be very uncomfy when you have dust

they don't care about initiative? the fact that you raise preflop matters. it makes it easier to pick up the pot. if they have no A or K, and one of those flops, the action goes check-check-bet-fold-fold. this is just a ridiculous statement


Limp reraises from the LAG not that uncommon

I'm supposed to worry that a middle position LAG overlimper is going to limp reraise?

Since when is J9s that "good"

since always? against 3 random hands, it is in about the top 20%. hands that are better and amount greater than fair share equity:

AA 38.9
KK 33.2
QQ 28.5
JJ 24.2
TT 20.2
AKs 16.4
99 16.1
AQs 14.9
AKo 13.6
AJs 13.5
KQs 13.2
88 12.5
ATs 12.2
AQo 11.9
KJs 11.8
KTs 10.7
QJs 10.6
AJo 10.4
KQo 10.2
QTs 9.6
A9s 9.6
77 9.4
ATo 9.1
JTs 8.8
A8s 8.6
KJo 8.6
K9s 7.9
A7s 7.6
QJo 7.6
KTo 7.5
Q9s 6.9
A5s 6.8
66 6.5
A6s 6.4
J9s 6.3




Schneids is a donator

I caught that "not really" in white /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[surfdoc]

Still not sold and would love to see someone post some PT stats showing this is profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
if they have no A or K, and one of those flops, the action goes check-check-bet-fold-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

We must be playing in some very different games because I see this happen rarely.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Still not sold and would love to see someone post some PT stats showing this is profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
if they have no A or K, and one of those flops, the action goes check-check-bet-fold-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

We must be playing in some very different games because I see this happen rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]


FWIW Schneids agreed with me. he said if the blinds are tight, it's a raise, and since he's the SB, it's a raise.

so you're saying that people (even at 15/30. I believe this is 50/100) chase unpaired cards on an A high flop?

one other point I didn't mention: when you choose not to use your initiative to pick up the pot, you can take a free card on the flop

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
so you're saying that people (even at 15/30. I believe this is 50/100) chase unpaired cards on an A high flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

Thats is precisely what I am saying. They will also bluff raise trash and in general show very little respect for even tight players raises. Of course this is often a good thing.

[surfdoc]

Not trying to hijack your thread BK even though I know you could care care less. Maybe this is just me running poorly or selective memory or whatever. In our discussion you describe how raising with position allows you to use the initiative to take down pots with an A on the flop. Here is an example which I admit is much different but check it out. Both opponents are 35/15 ish donks. Also my raise is in the setting of pretty tight and aggresive stats/image. (yes, I know they don't have/care about either) This is just tough when I get raised (by a guy with no pair and a backdoor draw only) and coldcalled. Flame if you wish:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.66 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.33 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, BB calls, Hero folds.

River: (8.33 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 8.33 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has Jc Kd (one pair, jacks).
BB has 3c 6c (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: CO wins 8.33 BB. </font>

[elindauer]

Go for the overcall on the turn. Everybody is drawing dead. Raise the river no matter what hits.

Good luck.
Eric

[daryn]

i'm also in the "raise preflop if you're gonna play" camp.

[Baulucky]

Hero raises and caps if it is 3 bets to him. IMO.


Edited to add: He is betting to charge you for your "free card play". Little he knows that you have trips and are drawing to a ton of outs. Either that or he has a FH already...

[HiatusOver]

"if you're gonna play"

This seems to suggest that you might fold this hand pre-flop. I believe this is a huge huge mistake.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
"if you're gonna play"

This seems to suggest that you might fold this hand pre-flop. I believe this is a huge huge mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think that's what i suggested.

[ggbman]

As people have said, you call to get the overcall from the BB and raise the river if Mp leads again. The BB will also call 2 on the river more often than the turn b/c of pot size.

[hogger]

i see it happen amost never last 4 months!

[Paluka]

I think raising with this preflop would be a worse mistake than folding. I like limping a lot.
The turn decision is really tricky, I'm pretty sure most of the time I would raise here, but I'm not so convinced I'm right.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
i am not sfer. i am white /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The smiley face is yellow, like me.

[hogger]

[ QUOTE ]
I think raising with this preflop would be a worse mistake than folding. I like limping a lot.
The turn decision is really tricky, I'm pretty sure most of the time I would raise here, but I'm not so convinced I'm right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise it but after this thread I realize smooth calling gets you more money. I ve been too aggressive for a while. Just on auto-pilot raising everytime i know i should have the best hand.
Mike

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this was $50/100, not from schneider's/sfer's donk fest last night or whenever that was.

[/ QUOTE ]


i am not sfer. i am white /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Dah. yeah, I meant you but it came out sfer haha. woops.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm hoping for some feedback on my preflop comment, becuase I really do think it's an easy raise against those guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising is fine pre-flop, limping is fine pre-flop. I honestly couldn't tell you which one is better...but the more you talk about it the more I think raising might be better. We're talking pennies, but pennies add up. As long as you don't fold. That would be a disaster.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm hoping for some feedback on my preflop comment, becuase I really do think it's an easy raise against those guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising is fine pre-flop, limping is fine pre-flop. I honestly couldn't tell you which one is better...but the more you talk about it the more I think raising might be better. We're talking pennies, but pennies add up. As long as you don't fold. That would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe they're nearly identical I think you should do as much as possible to make yourself look like a reckless gambler then...so you raise.

[Paluka]

I really do not like raising here. You are limping after some fish, fish love showodowns. If you don't hit anything you aren't winning with J high. Your hand plays well multiway so you don't mind the blinds cominga along. Getting 3 bet by someone behind you would also be disgusting. Just disgusting.

[rigoletto]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you guys really need to get of your adrenalin rush raising habits. J9s is a fine hand to see a cheap flop with (Pakula is right) and I don't mind the occasional raise to mix things up. But if this is a definate raise then so is a lot of other hands and you end up being labeled LAG and getting called everytime.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
As long as you don't fold. That would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are taking this a bit overboard. I am not advocating a fold but how can it really be a disaster?

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As long as you don't fold. That would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are taking this a bit overboard. I am not advocating a fold but how can it really be a disaster?

[/ QUOTE ]

True. but it's such an obviously profitable hand, that if you're folding it, there is a big leak in your game that I'm sure you're missing out on tons of money. In and of itself it's not a disaster, but if you're folding this, you're likely folding lots of other nicely profitable hands.

[brick]

Ha. I made a mistake like this last night. I forgot that he was not a passive folding type, he was a go to showdown with anything type. And there were calling donks behind me.

Donk raises. He has a random hand.
I 3-bet with 8cTc from CO. Dangit, another Donk calls. It's capped.
Flop 566 one club.
Donk Bet's. He has nothing. I raise. Dangit, Donk2 calls.
Turn 7r.
Donk Bets, I raise because the pot is getting big. Dangit, Donk2 calls.

River 7. Donk checks. I bet. Donk2 folds. Donk1....



calls with J high and wins.
Who's the donk now?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
But if this is a definate raise then so is a lot of other hands and you end up being labeled LAG and getting called everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is what you're going for.

[Baulucky]

N/M!

[Baulucky]

yawn.

[1800GAMBLER]

Sure feels like MP is getting ahead start on bets with his fullhouse or being a donkey, both lead me to think call.

eff that @ the idea of raising preflop.

[bicyclekick]

I called, bb c/r, mp called.

River was A/images/graemlins/spade.gif bb bet and we both called.

bb rolled 98, mp mucked and I dragged the pot.