$80-$160 Hand

[Jim Brier]

This is a 9-handed $80-$160 game at the Bellagio. I open with a raise under-the-gun having the As-Kd. An early player cold-calls. A middle player makes it 3-bets. The button calls. The small blind, who is a regular in this game, makes it 4 bets and everyone calls. There is $1920 in the pot and six players. The flop is: Ac-Jh-9c, giving me top pair, top kicker. The small blind bets. The big blind calls. I raise. The next player folds. The middle player who 3-bet preflop makes it 3-bets and it looks like he is about to go all-in. The button folds. The small blind folds. The big blind calls. I call. There is $2720 in the pot and three players. The turn is the 7c. The big blind checks. I check. The middle player goes all-in by betting $60. The big blind calls. What should I do?

Second question: If the river is a blank and the big blind checks, what should I do?

I will post the results later.

[mike l.]

"There is $1920 in the pot and six players. The flop is: Ac-Jh-9c, giving me top pair, top kicker. The small blind bets. The big blind calls. I raise."

wow im really sorry to hear that. with such a huge pot at stake you should just call here and then raise on the turn. your raise on the flop will do nothing by warn a very good player like the sb that his KK is no good. you have little other way to win this pot except by hoping your unimproved top pair top kicker holds up so you need to think a little more strategically; smoothcalling with hopes of raising the turn is the play here for sure, four flush or not. you need to narrow that field.

"The turn is the 7c. The big blind checks. I check. The middle player goes all-in by betting $60. The big blind calls. What should I do?"

what can you do? a full bet is $160 and $60 is less than half. are you allowed to check and then raise it a full bet in this game? that's obviously your play if you are able to do it. might as well try to build a small side pot in case youre beat by all-in (im not at all convinced that you are).

"Second question: If the river is a blank and the big blind checks, what should I do?"

uh, bet.

one thing, jim. why do you persist in saying there's $xxx in the pot when it would be so much more useful to say there are now x small/big bets in the pot? ive asked about this before and youve never said why. when i play i always keep track of total bets in my head for odds calculation purposes. ive never thought to myself "ok now there's $500 in the pot".

I would put the middle position player on Jacks or Aces after the flop. Since he 3bet it pre flop and 3 bet it flop I dont think he would do that unless he had trips or maybe A-J. But the thing is after you Raised UTG with BigSlick and he popped you back in middle pos. I would have to say he had a high to middle Pair. Now flop comes kinda scary A J 9 with 2clubs. He is going to make people pay. He is raising with either Trip Aces or Trip Jacks and you can be sure of that. I think if makes its two bets on the turn I think its safe for you to fold the turn. But the pot is so huge. I Know its hard to lay down a hand like that. It also depends on if you think he would press it all the way. Even if he missed the flop, would he still try to press it? It all depends on how he has been doing that night. But from The play so far he has a set, I would say. If you can put him on the steal and that he is a very loose/aggressive player than yes you absolutely call him unless the board becomes really scary with the clubs.

I would be interested in what happend and how the play went down.


TBolt76

[Ed Miller]

You have to bet as much as you are allowed to on the turn... complete to $160... or raise to $220 if you can. The BB has cold-called 3 bets preflop and 2 bets on the flop. Either he is a horrible player, or he is slowplaying AA. The flat call on the turn is the giveaway show of weakness, IMHO. BB is trying to get to the river as cheaply as possible. You should rain on his parade.

On the river you have a value bet if checked to.

[Ginogino]

Jim:
You can never be sure (at betting levels below $80/160, anyway) whether an all-in is playing like a maniac. In this case, though, given the relatively small amount required to call him (3/4 of a small bet) and given the likelihood that you're ahead of the Big Blind, the decision to continue to contest the hand is a no-brainer.

I'd have to expect that you are ahead of the big blind, who probably has an ace and something smaller than your king. I think you'd want to get as much money into the side pot as possible. I'll be interested to know what your opponents held.
Gino

[Gabe]

Once you have two players still in here, the chance that one of them has a set is pretty good. This is especially true if the MP would raise with 99, but fold AQ. On the other hand the MP could be on tilt, as he was close to all-in. Would the BB have taken the heat and be in here with a worse A? If he's that bad, you could bet the river for a partial refund. On the turn you, should not be allowed to check raise a bet that's less than half.

[Jim Brier]

mike, the reason I state dollars instead of bets is because most people think in terms of dollars. They spend dollars not bets. But I agree that from a technical standpoint, bets is the more accurate way of describing the amount in the pot.

A few decades ago, there was a nation-wide movement to get America off the English system of measurement (miles, pounds, and so forth) and use the metric system which is far superior. It is used in other countries as well as in scientific circles. Unfortunately, the "go metric movement" of the 1970s fizzled out. Americ simply would not accept it.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Jim,

I tend to disrespect raises and re-raises when a player is almost all in while playing a ring game. Often it is just done without much strength “to get it over with.” I put you as a favorite to be ahead of the short stack behind you.

I’m not so sure you should check the turn. You want to put the big blind to the test, and can always check the river if you don’t like the final card. The problem is that you can get checkraised, and if you are checkraised, you are usually way behind in this protected pot. By checking it is a near certainty that the player behind you will bet $60 “all in.” Since this is less than half a bet, this prevents a raise or completion of the bet by either of you. For $60, you must call.

On the river you should bet but it is close. AQ will pay you off and a set, flush, or AJ usually plays it more strongly.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

But Jim, “most people” lose at poker so stating the size of the pots in dollars as “most people” would think isn’t necessarily best. Readers of this forum tend to move between limits. Thinking in terms of bets avoids mistakes.

In my case, I stick to small bets before and on the flop and convert to big bets on the turn. I round off uncalled small blinds and rake. Otherwise, it is easy to get confused when moving between games.

Maybe the biggest problem with conversion to the metric system is the idea was the pet project of Senator Pell from my home state of Rhode Island.

Regards,

Rick

[Jim Brier]

Since I had checked, I could only call and not even complete the bet given that the all-in bet was less than half the normal turn bet. The river was a blank. The big blind checked. I checked. I won as the big blind mucked while the all-in player showed A-Q and then left.

I made several mistakes on this hand despite winning a large pot. First, I failed to notice that the 3-bettor was on the verge of going all-in. Second, I simply gave the all-in player too much credit. A player who is about to go all-in will frequently pump the pot on shaded values hoping to get lucky, otherwise he will usually go home. Third, I forgot to try to generate a side pot with the big blind who had shown no strength so far other than just calling bets and raises. Fourth, I should have at least bet the river. I think I suffered from "the pot is big enough" syndrome. With all that money at stake, the big blind might well call with any pair hoping by some miracle his hand is good.

On the other forum, Roy Cooke thought I should have 4-bet the flop once the small blind folded. In that way, I get the all-in player all-in and then I can make full bets on the turn and the river and extract full value from the hand. The key here is that the small blind, who had shown all this strength by 4-betting preflop, is now out of the hand.

Thanks for the responses.

[Jim Brier]

Congradulations on your new job at the Bike and making the cover of CardPlayer. What hold'em games are spread there?

[Rick Nebiolo]

Jim,

Well, it wasn’t exactly the cover but thanks anyway.

The lower middle section is doing better (4/8 to 8/16) since we went back to two blinds and made some other changes (e.g., no jackpot drop on no flop). I’m slowly gaining influence and am trying to get better procedures and fairer drops adopted. It is a long process but I’m in it for the haul.

The Top Section holdem struggles compared to Commerce, but the games can often be good and stay good since it isn’t so easy to change tables with two 20/40 games and a must move. Regarding holdem, we mostly have 20/40 and some 40/80. We are trying to get a 12/24 going but it is my belief that we have to kick it off with an incentive targeted at that game only. Many around town want to play this limit at the Bike (in my honest opinion, it is the most comfortable place in town) but they need the assurance of action.

Recently, we switched from time to drop on the 20/40 holdem (I’m in favor or time charges, but will do what I can to make the drop better for the players). Right now the drop for 20/40 and 12/24 holdem is $3 nine and eight handed, $2 seven and six handed, and $1 five handed or less. We drop a modified drop of $1 if there is no flop. Naturally, I’m trying to see if we can lower the modified drop (state law is a problem as far as “no flop no drop”) and take less short-handed (baseline data for this and other projects is why I’m posting some of these polls regarding hand speed).

I’m playing a lot of 20/40 stud eight or better lately (I wonder if you saw my post(s) on the stud forum and repost on RGP where Russ G. responded and later slammed David). This is a strong game in our top section so I play it a lot after work. I made the mistake of not learning this game years ago because I falsely believed that you needed to master stud first. If anything, high stud players bring bad habits into the game. Hero is doing very well at this game, and hasn’t played a hand of high stud in her life.

The Bike is a nice place to play and I hope to stay there for a long time. Our business can expand, and it doesn’t have to be at the expense of the Commerce. My philosophy is that the poker business pie can grow, so we can get a larger percentage AND help make a larger pie. But it takes doing just about everything right IMO.

Regards,

Rick

[mikelow]

Raise, despite the three clubs on board.

[mikelow]

Yes, I agree. Sorry I forgot that the bet was only $60.

What's the proper O/U for when the U.S. will switch to metric? Hint: those of you who say it'll never happen are deluding yourselves.

[bernie]

sounds like a loose wild game to me....

"I open with a raise under-the-gun having the As-Kd. An early player cold-calls. A middle player makes it 3-bets. The button calls. The small blind, who is a regular in this game, makes it 4 bets and everyone calls"

maybe im too tight but i dont like my hand here. you raised and it comes back for 2 more bets, 1 raise is from the sb. unless this is a wild game, im thinking of folding here. i figure im behind, with some of my outs gone. and if i hit my hand, i may be in for a beating. suited id be more inclined to call, but you had a better read of the table texture than me. sooooo.

the flop....

"The small blind bets. The big blind calls. I raise. The next player folds. The middle player who 3-bet preflop makes it 3-bets and it looks like he is about to go all-in. The button folds. The small blind folds. The big blind calls. I call"

id say your ahead here of the BB. this is an auto raise for the sidepot hedgebet. i love being in this spot, though i dont like how you got there, *see above. when someone shows weakness to a near allin bettor, im pumping it if i have anything and am planning on calling the allin anyway.

1st question: complete the bet from $60 to $160

you missed your opportunity by raising the flop, or betting out on the turn. though if you bet out the BB couldve folded. the BB only calls so no way im folding this, you should be able to complete his bet, you didnt bet out, so it's not like your raising yourself. you should be able to do this. the cardroom where i play, you can. if not, then call.

2nd question: bet
he hasnt shown any strength, though he may be a timid player whos checking a small flush. depends on your read.

b

[bernie]

"Since I had checked, I could only call and not even complete the bet given that the all-in bet was less than half the normal turn bet"

where i play, if he made a bet with just more than 1/2 the bet then you can put a full raise out. say he bet $100, you could then make it $260.

but with under 1/2 theyd let you complete. interesting, and it doesnt sound right....

what if.....the BB bet out only $60 here, going allin? does that mean you can only call $60? and he ends the action to only calls? that just doesnt sound right. could you explain this? id appreciate it /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

i agree with cooke's view of the flop, but im still not sure about the preflop call.

b

[Jim Brier]

Since the turn bet is $180, then $60 is less than one-half of the bet. I had already checked so I cannot complete the bet to $180. If I had not acted before the all-in player, then I could complete the bet to $180 but not raise to $240.

Now if the big blind went all-in for $60, then I can complete the bet to $180 since I had not had a chance to act.