pocket Q's; K on flop

[chopchoi]

I have been playing limit for a while, and have recently tried playing NL. It is hard because I never know what to do when I have a good, but not spectacular, hand. This is especially true on the flop or the turn. In limit, I can just call down, but in NL, I have to worry that even if I call this bet, the next one might be too big to call, so I may never get to show the hand down.

Here's an example:

$.10/.25 NL. I get QQ in ep and raise to $1.25. One player after me and BB call.

Flop is K,J,rag. BB checks. I bet $2. Player after me calls, BB folds.

Turn is a rag. I check, player after me bets $2. I fold.

I think I gave up on this hand too easily, but at the same time, I don't want to risk too many chips with a hand that could easily be second best. While it might be worth it to call $2 here, I was worried that if I did, he would bet bigger on the river, and I wouldn't know what to do. I didn't want to get stuck in that situation, so I folded. What should I have done?

[Los Feliz Slim]

How much was the pot when you bet $2 on the flop? I assume it was rainbow?

Checking the turn is too weak. He could easily be on a draw. Bet 1/2 the pot or a little more on the turn, fold to a raise. If he calls, check the river and decide whether to call based on how much he bets.

[chopchoi]

Pot was $4 when I bet $2 on the flop. I don't remember if it was rainbow or 2 suited.

So, lets say I bet $4 on the turn, and he calls that too. There's now $16 in the pot. How much should I be willing to call on the river if he bets?

[gulebjorn]

Bet more on the flop. Pot is 3.85 if i'm right, so bet 4. If i just get a call, and there's a possibility of someone chasing some kind of draw, i'll bet the turn and try to get him to fold. That would depend on table image, opponent and whether or not it's full ring or shorthanded though.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to risk too many chips with a hand that could easily be second best. While it might be worth it to call $2 here, I was worried that if I did, he would bet bigger on the river, and I wouldn't know what to do

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Bet more, don't show weakness and you'll find out if you're beat or not before the river (well, this would be what i'm going for, but i miss often enough) Folding is never the answer to the question if you're second best. Raising often is.

As usual, my limited point of view. Plz correct if i'm wrong.

[Los Feliz Slim]

The $2 flop bet is OK to me, a case can be made for $3 or $4 because so many people will bet 1/2 pot to find out where they are (as I advocate on the turn). At least here you can bet a higher proportion of the pot w/out costing yourself more $$.

As far as how much to call on the river, that's more of a personal decision, but without a read it's probable you're already beat, so I would say anything more than $4 is wasting money.

This is an excellent illustration of why position is so very, very, important.

[soLit]

I think a bet about 3/4 on the flop is a must that way it will be easier to put him on kings. Or maybe a checkraise on the flop to put him to the test?

So if he bets 4 on the flop, you can raise him to 8.. If he calls the 8 or reraises you then you can be sure that you are beat, and then lay this hand down with ease.
Any objections to this?

[kurto]

"Bet more, don't show weakness and you'll find out if you're beat or not before the river (well, this would be what i'm going for, but i miss often enough) Folding is never the answer to the question if you're second best. Raising often is."

I don't agree. I think this is actually very tricky. At $25 NL, 1/2 your opponents DON'T let you know if you're second best. For instance... you raise, they call with K5s... if a King is on the flop, THE IDIOT who calls a raise with a K5 suited is NOT going to fold his pair of Kings with a 5 kicker.

Because of this... I think this is a great question because its a position we find ourselves in a lot. As usual, the answer comes down to... "it depends."

This is where a player read is very important. Is the person a calling stations? Will they call down with bottom pair? A draw? ONLY top pair?

With that being said... I think the 'hero' should have bet the pot on the flop. With a pot that small ($3.75), anything less the a pot bet looks like a miss.

If he's called on the flop bet... the correct play is entirely read dependent.

I think I've actually been showing a loss with Qs lately because when the overcard hits, I continue to semi-bluff... and So many people will call with any Ace or King.

You want to punish these people for calling with K8s when you have AK and the flop contains a high card of a King.

[kurto]

"Or maybe a checkraise on the flop to put him to the test?" I don't like this. (1) there's draw on the table. You want to give out a free card? What if he checks it through and the turn brings an Ace? Any other broadway completing a straight/two pair?

If you checkraise and fold to a reraise... you may have cost yourself more money then if you bet out. If he bets, you min-reraise and he calls... where are you at?

[Los Feliz Slim]

[ QUOTE ]
"Or maybe a checkraise on the flop to put him to the test?" I don't like this. (1) there's draw on the table. You want to give out a free card? What if he checks it through and the turn brings an Ace? Any other broadway completing a straight/two pair?

If you checkraise and fold to a reraise... you may have cost yourself more money then if you bet out. If he bets, you min-reraise and he calls... where are you at?

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