A post about the first two cards

[Greg J]

I’ve noticed that a lot of newer posters are posting hands where huge preflop mistakes are being made. I wanted to try and address some of this. This may or may not result from a notion that “postflop play is more important.” A lot of the more experienced posters seem to put forth this attitude, and while not completely meritless, it is misleading for some newer people. I want to state this explicitly: good preflop play is essential to being a winning poker player. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition to winning consistently. Furthermore, preflop and postflop play go together, as the decisions you make early in a hand go on to affect the ones you make later.

Some thoughts on the first two cards:

First, limping with small pocket pairs and A2s is fine in most micro limit games in any position. Sometimes you will find yourself at a game where you have to muck these hands. That is okay, just be cognizant that you are at such a table (and while you are at it, it might be a good idea to uncheck the “autopost blinds” box and make that your last orbit). I don’t want to get too preachy about table selection though, but just bear in mind that in most circumstances, limping here is good. (I personally like playing on a tighter than average table sometimes, especially when I can bully the blinds. Poker is not only about making money, but to it’s about having fun too. I feel this makes up for having to fold a hand like 44 UTG+1 when I can use the same hand to take down the blinds later… but I will get to that below.)

Second, a sure sign of a poker player who does not totally know what he is doing is when he open limps from the button, CO, or two off the button. When I see a player do this, I make a note of it. If you are the first in, and are limping with A9s from MP2, I’m sorry, but you are a lost little lamb. Stop doing that. There is a sliding scale of what you should do that I will sum up as follows: when you are first in, the later you act the more prone you should be to raise. I’m not sure I’ve ever read this anywhere, but at this point it’s totally intuitive to me. It’s folded to me on the CO with 44. Easy raise. Even if the blinds are loose, your positional advantage the rest of the hand will make you money. NEVER open limp from LP. When you are in the last 3 positions, and it is folded to you, you have two options: raise or fold. If your hand it worth playing, raise. If the blinds are weak, feel free to take them down with a hand like A5o.

Relatedly, there is a technique I use a lot, and a lot of others too obviously, where you raise to isolate a loose and poor player – like a 60 vpip and <1 aggression person. This is usually called an isolation play – I like to call it a semi-blind steal. Criteria: you are in LP, a weak and loose player has limped before you, and you thinking you can get the blinds to fold to a raise. Raise some hands you might not otherwise raise, like A8o, K9s, or 55. This can take out the blinds, who might be more prone to respect your raise given the fact that there was already a limper, and you will hopefully be HU with a weak player, with a good chance of having the best hand and a positional advantage, in a pot inflated with dead money: a win-win-win-win situation!!!

Third: cold calling. Do it rarely. It would not be a huge error if you never cold called preflop, but sometimes it’s worth it. E.g. you have 99 on the button and several players have already cold called an EP raise. Hell, if there are 4 or more cold callers, it’s probably okay to add any pocket pair just hoping to hit a set. But if it’s folded to you after an open raise, fold your 33 or your 77. If you don’t, reraise (if you have a read to do that), but for the love of God, don’t call!

Hopefully this post will help some of you newer guys who have been struggling with preflop play (and there have been a lot of you lately). Guys, we need to remember preflop play is important – VERY important. The attitude that “postflop is where you win the money” is true to a point, but if you play like crap preflop then this limits what you can do on later streets. I think we should perhaps look at the game of limit hold em more holistically – all streets go together. We should stop compartmentalizing so much. The decisions you make regarding the first two cards affect the decisions you make regarding the next five. Preflop play is inextricably linked to postflop play – we should treat the game as such.

[Isura]

Excellent post.

[ QUOTE ]
good preflop play is essential to being a winning poker player. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition to winning consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a math guy, I couldn't have said this better myself. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think the pitfalls of cold-calling cannot be de-emphazied.
I'm generally even more tight than the SSH recommendations for cold-calling. For example, I have no problem folding AQs in MP1 vs an UTG raiser. If I think he's a LAG, I reraise, neveer cold-call in this situation.
I remember when I first started poker, I followed WLLHE's preflop advice and it saved me a lot of money while learning the game. This point cannot be overlooked. Most of the money you make as a beginner in low-limit games is from avoiding costly errors. It's okay to win at 1.5BB/100 for your first 10K hands of .5/1 while learning the game. You can add marginal hands and play more aggressive once you have that experience. I don't want to hijack a good thread, so I'll stop now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[LuckyStrike]

Nice post, Greg, and thanks.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Relatedly, there is a technique I use a lot, and a lot of others too obviously, where you raise to isolate a loose and poor player – like a 60 vpip and <1 aggression person. This is usually called an isolation play – I like to call it a semi-blind steal. Criteria: you are in LP, a weak and loose player has limped before you, and you thinking you can get the blinds to fold to a raise. Raise some hands you might not otherwise raise, like A8o, K9s, or 55. This can take out the blinds, who might be more prone to respect your raise given the fact that there was already a limper, and you will hopefully be HU with a weak player, with a good chance of having the best hand and a positional advantage, in a pot inflated with dead money: a win-win-win-win situation!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

If you have a PFR of 7 and you're wondering how people manage to get up to 10-12, this is a significant chunk of the answer. Position raises preflop are good all around plays.

Here's another benefit: If you end up showing down a hand like A8o, it will make you seem like a LAG to those who are paying attention, but aren't *enough* attention. This is one of those plays that looks ridiculous if you don't know what's going on and you can get more action as a result. (Note: Do this for solid strategic reasons *ONLY*! Don't make this into an image play!)

[bottomset]

besides playing 22/12 is sooo much more fun than 17/8

[Bradyams]

Nice post, I've been trying to do this more lately, and I have a quick question:

How does this change if you're at a tight table? Let's say you're a t a typical loose .50/1 table, and it's actually folded to you in the CO, and you have 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, from what I understand is that you would want to raise here.

What if you're at a tight table with some solid aggressive players? And one of those solid players is in the BB? (I'm currently clearing a bonus at Absolute, and this is what the tables are like during the day. Table selection sucks there.)

[Greg J]

The raise or fold theorum still applies to this scenario. I would tend to raise it, and use my position to my advantage the rest of the hand. Many times I will go with a line like bet/raise the flop, bet/fold the turn, check through UI on the river. It all depends on my read, and assuming I miss my set.

[johnc]

Great post! Thanks for the insight from experience! Question: At what level do you think your pf advice becomes less valuable ie: 1/2?, 2/4?, 3/6?,...? Also, how applicable could your advice be for low limit live play? Thanks in advance!

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post! Thanks for the insight from experience! Question: At what level do you think your pf advice becomes less valuable ie: 1/2?, 2/4?, 3/6?,...? Also, how applicable could your advice be for low limit live play? Thanks in advance!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that advice about how to best use advantageous position can only become more valuable as the limit goes up.

[Greg J]

I think it's prudent to not think necessarily in terms of the limit as much as how people play. That being said, knowing this stuff becomes more important as the players get better, not only so you can apply it, but so you can defend against it.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post! Thanks for the insight from experience! Question: At what level do you think your pf advice becomes less valuable ie: 1/2?, 2/4?, 3/6?,...? Also, how applicable could your advice be for low limit live play? Thanks in advance!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the wrong way to think about it. It's not about "raise in LP because Greg said so," you should think about what he's trying to teach you.

The strength of your hand is dependent on the specific circumstances you find yourself in. This is too complicated to ever completely discuss in book form. Guidelines are designed to help you keep out of big trouble by giving you basic guidance on average plays. The discussion in SSH about how to evaluate your hand is much more helpful than the charts.

Greg is trying to help you see how situational this all is. You usually limp small pocket pairs in loose/passive pf games because you expect to be able to see the flop cheaply with lots of company -- since you'll most often have many opponents, your hand is not terribly likely to hold up UI when you're dealing with pp<5. However, when it's folded to you on the button, you know you're going to have at most 2 opponents + position + blind money to go after. All of a sudden things are very different, and a raise is often in order. Contrast this with being folded to in MP1, where a fold is often correct. What's the difference?

Why would you raise A8o when folded to in LP when everything tells you to stay away from Ax? What sort of situations would you be comfortable playing suited connectors/1-gaps? The point is that you should work on thinking about these things in context rather than simply following a chart. However good it is, it can only ever make basic assumptions re. what will most often be the case when you're dealt a particular hand -- its usefulness is therefore directly proportional to the degree to which the assumptions apply at that moment.

It's sort of like people asking what limits SSH is applicable to. If you understand the concepts it discusses, you'll be able to recognize when to apply them regardless of what limit you're playing.

There's a wide range of .5/1 games on the Party network. More to the point, the games change from hand to hand. Is it a shootout between 3 TAGs, or two maniacs and a LP-P? Huge difference. If you don't learn what makes a hand playable in context, you'll never achieve more than marginal success.

"The money is made post-flop" assumes a certain degree of pre-flop proficiency. Arguments like whether limping or raising AJo pf is better aren't very interesting due to the fact that there's not much to choose between them. You're giving up a lot, though, if you routinely play hands you should fold (or vice versa).

PF play is by far the easiest to learn. That doesn't mean it's easy. It also doesn't mean you shouldn't think about it. For most novice players, there's a lot of money to be made through improved pf play. This is because the mistakes are relatively large. Once you become more comfortable with the basics, there's much more money to be found post-flop. It also gets a whole lot harder.

Work on your fundamentals. Learn the theory. Start with pf play. And thank Greg for taking the time to help by following his example.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that you should work on thinking about these things in context rather than simply following a chart.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I totally agree here. Those charts are misleading, and in all honesty I'm not a huge fan of them.

[UncleSalty]

This is the thread of the week, IMHO. Nice job to all.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
when you are first in, the later you act the more prone you should be to raise. I’m not sure I’ve ever read this anywhere, but at this point it’s totally intuitive to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH does say this (I just re-read it this week). However it doesn't make the point as clearly as you just did. Excellent advice all around. Keep up the good work.

[mscags]

Thanks for this post its really good and will certainly help me. I just have one question to ask you. I am in the process of moving up from .5-1$ at PP to 1$-2$ and having a little bit of trouble and I'm not sure If I'm having trouble or just taking some bad beats, but anyway, what kind of hands should I open for a raise with in early position of those games? I know in the lower limits you can open with a few weaker hands like JKs and 99, but what is appropriate for the higher limit? Are hands Like KQ AQ ok? I feel like lately every time I raise with an AQ,KQ, and similar hands someone who calls has me crushed. Thanks for your time and again great post /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[NAU_Player]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the thread of the year, IMHO. Nice job to all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[UncleSalty]

Thanks man! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[detruncate]

Start with the obvious ones: TT-AA (often 99 too), AK(s), AQ(s), KQ(s), AJs (most people raise AJo too), KJs, ATs. Other hands can be raised situationally, but you won't go too far wrong if you restrict yourself to these for now. Be prepared to be flexible on the lower end of things if you find yourself in a really tough game (or better yet, find a new table). Read the pre-flop section of SSH to learn the basics of hand evaluation (high card strength, suitedness, connectedness), and what it means for you in practice.

You're right... you'll sometimes be dominated when 3-bet or called. With decent post-flop play, however, you should be able to avoid rampant chip-spewage. Hopefully. Or so I hear.

Much more often, it'll be you doing the dominating. Latex and leather is optional, but encouraged. And remember... the safe word is "fold".

[SoftcoreRevolt]

I really knew my preflop game was missing something. A horrible 1/2 downswing where the most horrific beats possible caused me to tighten up a bit, and weaken up preflop. I couldn't really figure out why my PFR was a bit lower lately, but this is why, I've neglected to open raise from the CO and Button as much as I normally would.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
It’s folded to me on the CO with 44. Easy raise. Even if the blinds are loose, your positional advantage the rest of the hand will make you money. NEVER open limp from LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

For this specific example. What do you hope to achieve by raising with 44 against loose blinds? They are not going to fold enough times (possibly ever) to make this profitable. So with 44 you cannot play anything on the flop unless you hit your set. (What would you do even HU in a flop like K92 etc). You need to be a master of postflop play (if this makes sense against calling stations) to survive. So could this be a case of limping at LP (against loose blinds)?

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
(What would you do even HU in a flop like K92 etc). You need to be a master of postflop play (if this makes sense against calling stations) to survive. So could this be a case of limping at LP (against loose blinds)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet. Absolutely and without question (assuming it's checked to you). More often than not they'll give it up right there.

at least, that's what i do, but i could be completely wrong.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It’s folded to me on the CO with 44. Easy raise. Even if the blinds are loose, your positional advantage the rest of the hand will make you money. NEVER open limp from LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

For this specific example. What do you hope to achieve by raising with 44 against loose blinds? They are not going to fold enough times (possibly ever) to make this profitable. So with 44 you cannot play anything on the flop unless you hit your set. (What would you do even HU in a flop like K92 etc). You need to be a master of postflop play (if this makes sense against calling stations) to survive. So could this be a case of limping at LP (against loose blinds)?

[/ QUOTE ]
Good question. No, this would not be a case of just limping. One of the major things I want to get across is that open limping in LP is always a mistake. If you were against loose blinds or smart TAgs then I would sooner fold than limp. If you feel that uncomfortable about limping here, then just go ahead and fold. You are not getting enough people along for the ride to play any hand for set value. (NOTE: I am not recommending a fold -- it's a big mistake, just not as big a one as open limping.)

I will try to lay this out for you (and others) a little better. The logic of playing 44 this way is similar to the logic of the semibluff in that there are several ways you can win: 1) You can take down the blinds. Sometimes even loose passives will fold here. Not often, but enough to consider it. 2) You can win by having your hand hold up UI. This will be fairly common. Against overcards 44 is a small favorite. 3) You will sometimes hit your set.

Now, when the blind does have a better hand, you have position which will minimize your losses (or should). The whole theme of the post, and what I'm trying to get across is the importance of position. I want to make clear: just because you are raising 44 preflop does not mean you are married to the hand. In your example of a K 9 2 flop, which is actually a pretty good flop texture for you, what you do depends on your opponent. If he is TA and bets into you on the flop, I like a line like raise the flop, bet the turn and fold to a CR, or fold to another bet. I usually check through the river UI. Again a loose passive player, you can usually get away with a bet-bet-check line (UI), folding to a CR anywhere.

Now on a flop like A K T, you are certainly not willing to spew chips, and your positional advantage help you aviod this. I will usually bet if checked to on the flop, but that is usually all the money I'm willing to put in. This can often buy you a free look at the river, but it's more of just an outright bluff. Again, this is read dependent.

Hope that makes some degree of sense.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]

Hope that makes some degree of sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, it certainly does.
Would you consider some percentage of times (10%-20%?) to play differently to prevent reads by your opponents or is this worthless for microlimits?

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider some percentage of times (10%-20%?) to play differently to prevent reads by your opponents or is this worthless for microlimits?

[/ QUOTE ]
Remember microlimit players come in different flavors. As far as reads go, if you are open raising not only 44 in LP, but a variety of hands, including broadway cards, suited connectors, and basically anything playable, he won't know what the hell you have anyway. You could have 44, KJo, Axs, whatever. It's hard for him to read you.

[@bsolute_luck]

okay, first great post. thank you. it was very helpful. now on to my newbish questions. i was going to put this in the beginner, but since it is relevant, i figured i'd ask here.

"open limping" and "open raising"- are these based on it being folded all the way around to you? is cold calling based on someone betting or limpers already in the hand (this is preflop obviously not postflop)?

i have been very focused on my preflop play because if i'm not comfortable with the hands i have chosen, i get easily lost postflop. and by properly setting up the hand preflop, i can win a lot more postflop, but this question came up as i reread some of SSH's recommendations/thoughts.

[sweetjazz]

Thanks for the great post, Greg. Preflop play *is* very important. And that doesn't contradict the fact that postflop play is also more important.

Just wanted to add something to one line you wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, preflop and postflop play go together, as the decisions you make early in a hand go on to affect the ones you make later.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely true. When you're making preflop decisions, you should be forming in your mind a plan for postflop play. Obviously, it cannot be that specific of a plan, as you can't account for every single possible flop. And I wouldn't really spend a lot of time worrying about rare flops (e.g. a monotone flop with 3 undercards, where the suit on the board does not match your hole cards at all). Think about how you are going to play if you hit top pair; middle pair; overcards; a draw with 8 outs or better; one overcard; an underpair; etc. You should be considering the possibilities that are most likley, e.g. with AK you are thinking about top pair and overcards, with 77 you are thinking about what to do based on how many overcards come.

Are you playing 77 primarily to win unimproved (e.g. 3-betting a maniac who open-raised) or for set value (calling after several limpers)? Who's in the pot so far? How does my hand compare to the likely range of hands he has? Do I know a lot about his postflop play? The more you can read an opponent postflop, the better your chances are. I might 3-bet somone with Axo on the button if I though there was a good chance I could get it heads up and if I had knowledge that he typically folded overcards on the flop (or even if he does so on the turn). That information more than makes up for the fact that I'm likely dominated. OTOH, I will easily fold AJo (and maybe AQo) in that spot against a TAG open-raiser. This player might even have slightly looser preflop standards, but his different postflop playing style significantly decreases my EV, sometimes so much so that it turns a 3-bet into a fold.

Also, while postflop play is important, even the most skilled postflop player can't do much if he cold-calls a raise from a tight player with KJo. Similarly, he can't maximize his profits if he just limps with KJo on the button if there's a single limper in the pot so far whose VP$IP is > 75%. Such preflop mistakes are very costly.

[Greg J]

You've got the lingo straight yeah. Open raise means you are first in and raise. Open limp means you are first in and limp (call). Cold call is when you call someone else's raise (or reraise), and is generally a mistake (but not always).

This is not totally irrelevant for this forum, so don't sweat the noob question too much. I think they should have a definition of these terms on some sort of FAQ on the beginner's page, but they don't yet.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]


"open limping" and "open raising"- are these based on it being folded all the way around to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You're the first person putting money into the pot voluntarily.

[ QUOTE ]
is cold calling based on someone betting or limpers already in the hand (this is preflop obviously not postflop)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold-calling is calling for 2 bets or more when you have not put any chips into the pot to that point. E.G., UTG raises, UTG+1 calls would be a cold-call. Overcalling is when UTG limps and UTG+1 calls.

UTG=Under the gun (first to act).

[ QUOTE ]
i have been very focused on my preflop play because if i'm not comfortable with the hands i have chosen, i get easily lost postflop. and by properly setting up the hand preflop, i can win a lot more postflop, but this question came up as i reread some of SSH's recommendations/thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will probably be at least break even if you follow the SSH pf charts and don't play horribly post flop. Good place to start.

Welcome to the forum. Check out the FAQ for lots of useful info. Also jump into the conversation by replying to threads, even if you think you might be wrong. We all learn together.

Happy pokering.

[flopwell]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet. Absolutely and without question (assuming it's checked to you). More often than not they'll give it up right there.

at least, that's what i do, but i could be completely wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely....they will give it up 60% of the time.

[OrianasDaad]

Here's a preflop question about small PP in late position. Let's say a bunch of passive players (4+) limp to you in the button, and you have 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I normally raise this, knowing that I'll probably drag a big pot if I hit a set, I can get away from the hand if I miss, and that I have a good chance of seeing four board cards instead of three.

Bad play? I haven't done the math on it, but it seems right intuitively.

Good post, BTW. It's over this past month or so as I watched my VPIP climb from 16% to just under 20% that I realized that my pre-flop play was improving because my post-flop play was better than it used to be, along with my interpretation of reads on players.

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say a bunch of passive players (4+) limp to you in the button, and you have 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I normally raise this, knowing that I'll probably drag a big pot if I hit a set, I can get away from the hand if I miss, and that I have a good chance of seeing four board cards instead of three.

Bad play? I haven't done the math on it, but it seems right intuitively.


[/ QUOTE ]
Bad play. Why do you think you'll drag a big pot if you hit a set against passive players? Why put in two bets hoping to flop a set against players who will at best call you down? While I still wouldn't recommend it, you're more likely to drag a big pot against aggressive players if you hit a set and one of them makes a hand or draw.

Small PPs want multi-way action to make up for the fact that they're usually (with some exceptions) being played for set value only, so are going to be mucked 7/8 times, thus they want to get in cheaply.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a preflop question about small PP in late position. Let's say a bunch of passive players (4+) limp to you in the button, and you have 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I normally raise this, knowing that I'll probably drag a big pot if I hit a set, I can get away from the hand if I miss, and that I have a good chance of seeing four board cards instead of three.

Bad play? I haven't done the math on it, but it seems right intuitively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen that play advocated before, especially in live games where it's so much more common to have the flop checked to the raiser. It's not really a 'free' turn card, nor is it even a cheap turn card because the preflop raise is the same as a flop call. You lose when someone bets into you on the flop (hence it's *EXTREMELY* important to be sure you're getting checked to on the flop).

My gut feeling is that it's probably a wash (just like raising AJo in the blinds with many players). You pad the pot, which encourages players to hang around with slightly lesser hands (and probably much more correctly), which means you're inviting yourself to be drawn out on more often (which isn't a bad thing, as they're chasing their own money). You also pad the pot for when you catch a set and hold up, but your extra preflop investment cuts against this gain when you miss.

At a meta-level, you gain a reputation as an action player if you ever show it down, meaning you get paid off better elsewhere. But that's only a small consideration.

[Greg J]

I wanted to bump this b/c I think it answers some questions that are being posed. Hope it's not too shameless.

[string4]

THANKS for bumping this...is there an archive section or something to place super-posts like this one? i've been printing the ones that are super-informative and stuff, but is there like a Hall of Fame or Archive section or could one be started so that newbies (like me) could spend a week in that forum before having to bring asked and re-asked questions here?

[Greg J]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure if this is a "super post," -- I don't think it's up there with the "charging the flush draws" post or anything. Mainly it's just me getting my own thoughts straight too.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure if this is a "super post,"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem. Nice modesty, but yes, it certainly is. Detruncate gets props in there too. Again, nice job guys.

[yellowjack]

Courtesy of mmbt0ne, 170~ pages of goodness:

Link for the Word Document (http://www.f2f2s.com/Applications/MicrolimitCollection.doc)

Link for the PDF (http://www.f2f2s.com/Applications/MicrolimitCollection.pdf)

From this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2141664&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) thread

[string4]

WOW this is SWEET!!!! thanks so much Yellowjack!!! Got my next couple of days' study planned heehee...

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the thread of the week, IMHO. Nice job to all.

[/ QUOTE ]

*bump*

[Greg J]

I thought this was important enough to add to this thread.

In the process of fixing some leaks in my game, I came across a rather big one a while back. I have been meaning to post about it here, but took an extended hiatus from poker, including these boards.

I made this thread just to clarify a lot of ideas in my own playing, and get them down. In the process of that, and in analyzing others’ play, I found myself largely in agreement with the big names – Entity, shadow, Shillx, zuluking, droolie, btspider and others – which was heartening. Yet my preflop stats were 15/8. WTF?

Then I found it: the leak. It’s simple. It’s something many of you are probably doing right now and don’t realize it. Auto fold. Are you getting A8o in LP and hitting the “auto fold” box? Stop! When it’s folded to you in LP this is the kind of hand that is GREAT for open raising, as I argue on this thread.

I think yr mind plays a trick on you when you are multitabling and have a premium hand, or a tough decision, at one of yr tables. Then that J8s on the button comes up. You automuck it. When you have the QQ on yr other table, J8s looks like crap. And when you are trying to calculate whether you are getting the proper odds to on yr gutshot, you don’t wanna burn extra brain calories on J8s. The thing is, this is obviously a hand that is playable in some circumstances.

My solution is simple. Before you hit the automuck box on ANY hand, ask yrself this question: “is there any circumstance under which I would play this hand?” You would be surprised how often you will hold off folding. I mean 83o in MP, yeah that’s crap, obviously. But when you get that 96s in LP it’s okay to see how many limper there are to you. Or maybe you can isolate a really poor player who limped UTG when it’s folded to you and the blinds are uber tight with something like QTo.

I guess the moral is, before you hit the turbomuck, think. Or just stop using it altogether.

That is all. Peace out. Greg.

[istewart]

This is a great point.

[closer2313]

I just wanted to comment on what a great thread this is. I didn't realize how big of a mistake I was making by open limping and not open raising with some decent hands in lp.

Thanks alot!

[sirdeej2]

Thanks Greg. Now I can actually come out in the black when i try to clear my bonuses.

[DRD66]

OK, this hand is more about post-flop play than the OP's subject, but it occured while I was reading this thread and is soooooo close to the above question I couldn't resist posting it. Besides, this thread should be bumped daily for at least the next week.

BB is well known to me, loose pf but folds all but TP+ on the flop. CO is fishy. Victim just sat down.


Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 :#A500AF(victim)/ posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 :#A500AF(victim)/ (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, victim calls, CO folds, BB folds.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, victim calls.

River: (5.20 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, victim folds.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

Granted, it wasn't checked to me, but knowing the other 2 players it might as well have been. I took a calculated risk, but I think it still illustrates pryor15's point.

God, I love this forum.

[therockofgibraltar]

great thread! thanks!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
Auto-fold business

[/ QUOTE ]

Good call man. I used to do the exact same thing, and I still accidentally do it from time to time as well.

[Greg J]

Every now and then we are entitled to shameless bumps. This topic seems to be esp salient on the brd right now -- lots of preflop questions and screwage upage and such.

I would like to give Shillx some dap for making this useful comment in a recent thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Always raise your post when it is folded around to you. Any two cards are worth a raise. And don't say something like "there are too many people to fold out to make it profitable" since you should be posting in the CO everytime (barring a really good table). If you posted in UTG+2 or something then no you should not raise 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif , but you never should have posted in that spot in the 1st place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Write that down if it is not already burned into yr brain.

[SavageMiser]

This is a fantastic piece of advice. I still have to slap myself whenever I auto-fold on the button or in the CO. Auto actions are evil.

[DavidC]

I'd like to add here that even at a 45% average vpip table, sometimes it will be folded to the bb.

Not often, but sometimes.

--Dave.

Edit: The reason I say this is that I always see a ton of replies "get off that table" if someone posts a blind stealing question. They might be telling him to get off a table with 95% vpip. It also might be a tight table with a really great lag to your direct right or something.

Also, I wouldn't deserve my title if I didn't note that you can have more than 5 decisions post-flop. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[DavidC]

Could someone post up a hand where they re-raise with 33?
That's pretty ballsy stuff.

[Online247]

Just wanted to say, great post. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[DavidC]

I'm sure that my response started on topic, but it really wandered, so now I'm just writing up some general thoughts. Hope you guys don't mind.

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent post.

[ QUOTE ]
good preflop play is essential to being a winning poker player. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition to winning consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a math guy, I couldn't have said this better myself. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think the pitfalls of cold-calling cannot be de-emphazied.
I'm generally even more tight than the SSH recommendations for cold-calling. For example, I have no problem folding AQs in MP1 vs an UTG raiser. If I think he's a LAG, I reraise, neveer cold-call in this situation.
I remember when I first started poker, I followed WLLHE's preflop advice and it saved me a lot of money while learning the game. This point cannot be overlooked. Most of the money you make as a beginner in low-limit games is from avoiding costly errors. It's okay to win at 1.5BB/100 for your first 10K hands of .5/1 while learning the game. You can add marginal hands and play more aggressive once you have that experience. I don't want to hijack a good thread, so I'll stop now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty sure that if you have some juicy guys behind you who respect your table image, that you would like in the hand, you would probably rather call than reraise, right?

I think that the expert level of play has less to do with SD value of hands and more to do with creating the appropriate situations in which your hand has max EV. In this regard, I think playing some NLHE is really really worthwhile to the development of an LHE player. I mean, I think ideally that an expert would be observing the play of his opponents, choosing his hand and his position to try to exploit their opponents' most common and costly errors.

For example, in HPFAP, it says that you can play A6 against opponents who will play any ace...

Now there's no way that I've gotten to this level of thinking, or even concentration, yet, but I feel that it's possible for me to get there one of these days. I'm not 100% sure if there are many people on these boards who HAVE gotten there, but I haven't read the Mid/high forum ever, so maybe that's where they all chill out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

When observing a game to see if it's a good game, you should be watching for mistakes (miller mentions looking for cold-calling and lots of people to the flops for a good example, few raises, etc.). When you see a post-flop mistake, you have to have an idea of how much it cost the guy, as well as how often that sort of mistake can occur, and I guess you should think about how likely it is to happen in your favour also. If this guy's weakness is something like three-betting with TPTK when there's no way that a TAA could have a hand that beats him (but where a LPP certainly could have one!), this won't really help you at all, other than by slowing down the rate at which the LPPs give their chips to this guy, and thus, giving you a better chance at getting and keeping their chips.

Yikes. This is exactly the kind of info that can slowly get me out of my mechanical play-by-scheme thinking. Both the original post and the follow-up on what to do(and not the least, _why_) on later streets after a blind steal attempt.
Thanks.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to bump this b/c I think it answers some questions that are being posed. Hope it's not too shameless.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is, will you have to ban yourself? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[@bsolute_luck]

simply a suggestion as this thread has been recently revived and thankfully newer players that missed it the first time will be able to read it (which i just found i toggled as a favorite /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

a suggestion (and possibly an obvious one) to players wondering "Greg says to stop open-limping and raising hands in late position, but i don't know which ones":

search the forums for the 6-max starting hands and blind defense charts to get the idea of the hand ranges and positions. adjust as you feel comfortable to your opponents and your postflop play abilities.

DO NOT feel like you HAVE to do exactly what the chart indicates, but as you feel you want to. Maybe sometime you're running hot and up gobs of money and decide to give it shot. But know in these late positions: it is raise or fold time with the marginal hands and this is not debateable. It is not "i'm not comfortable raising, so i'll limp" -ERRR, wrong.

Those charts will give you at least a good, solid stepping stone in figuring out what to do at these tighter tables and more aggressive blind stealers.

[Innocentius]

[ QUOTE ]
Every now and then we are entitled to shameless bumps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes indeed. Thanks for the bump. Missed the thread the first time around.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, 6. MP3 :#A500AF(victim)/ posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls, 4 folds, MP3 :#A500AF(victim)/ (poster) checks, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 3, K, 9 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, victim calls, CO folds, BB folds.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, victim calls.

River: (5.20 BB) J (2 players)
Hero bets, victim folds.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think victim folded a hand that beat you here for 1 bet on the river?

[mslif]

Great post, thanks for bumping it.

[lautzutao]

Last bump for teh year. Read this!!

[tiltaholic]

bump

[WalkAmongUs]

awesome posts. never saw this one before. The PDF of classic posts is quite f-ing awesome as well. nice bump.