Two 65s hands - Hand Quiz

[Isura]

This is more for the new players. These are hands 14 and 15 from the turn preflop quiz in SSH. What would you do on the turn in both hands? Answer if you haven't read it. Feel free to discuss other aspects of the hand (eg. the preflop call) even if you've read the section.

Hand 1:
You have 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB.
Four limpers, button raises, SB folds, you and the four limpers call. (12.5 SB)

Flop:
Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to button who bets. You and three others call (8.5 BB).

Turn: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hand 2:
Again have 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. Same preflop action (12.5 BB).

Flop:
Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Again button bets, and you and three others call (8.5BB).

Turn:
6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Discuss.

[Kumubou]

Hand 1: Bet out. I would love to check with the intention of raising this hand from a bet on my left, but odds are the button is going to bet out and you are going to blow away the field. Now if the button raises you can just smooth call, because there is no sense in blowing the field away (your hand would have to be counterfiet or the board would have to pair up for anyone to even have a chance at beating you, and someone having the cards to do that is highly unlikely). Now if you think the field will call two cold, go ahead and 3-bet. Check-raising is silly here because it either gets checked through (which would be a disaster) or the button bets and you blow the field away.

Hand 2: Check with the intent of raising the button's bet. If you just bet out, people with gutshots and single pairs have correct odds to call -- there are all kinds of hands here that are a threat to draw out on you at the river. Just do what you can to take this pot down right now.

-K

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Bet out. I would love to check with the intention of raising this hand from a bet on my left, but odds are the button is going to bet out and you are going to blow away the field. Now if the button raises you can just smooth call, because there is no sense in blowing the field away (your hand would have to be counterfiet or the board would have to pair up for anyone to even have a chance at beating you, and someone having the cards to do that is highly unlikely). Now if you think the field will call two cold, go ahead and 3-bet. Check-raising is silly here because it either gets checked through (which would be a disaster) or the button bets and you blow the field away.

Hand 2: Check with the intent of raising the button's bet. If you just bet out, people with gutshots and single pairs have correct odds to call -- there are all kinds of hands here that are a threat to draw out on you at the river. Just do what you can to take this pot down right now.

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

This is EXACTLY the line I was going to post for both hands and for the same reasons. The main difference between the two is the possibility of gutshots showing up on the turn in Hand #2. So, in one you want lots of customers for a very strong hand, in two you want to narrow the field for your vulnerable two pair.

Edit: I think the number of limpers makes this PF call ok in most cases. The only time I'd fold is if button has very low VPIP and PFR stats.

[Isura]

Looks good. Hope everyone understands why we must check-raise in hand 2. Getting it checked through sucks, but the pot is too big and your hand is too vulnerable to let live draws see the river cheaply. You also want to get the maximum value on the turn, since you might not get paid off as well on the river if everyone misses. Your EV from when you get to check-raise makes up for the times that it's checked through and you lose the pot some of those times.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
Your EV from when you get to check-raise makes up for the times that it's checked through and you lose the pot some of those times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice quiz Isura, thanks. Is the above just conventional wisdom, or is there some way to verify that statement? (Not that I doubt you, but I'm wondering if there's a tool I'm missing for testing these sorts of hypotheses?)