Why am I such a fish?

[chopchoi]

I get KK in mid-position, raise 1st in, and am heads up with BB. Flop is A,J,rag, and BB comes out betting. I raise. The turn is another A. I bet.

That was a dumb bet. I'm not going to get him to lay down a better hand, and I'm not sure that I'm ahead, so I can't really bet for value. I should have checked and seen the river cheap. The reason I bet here is out of habit. I used to raise the flop/check the turn whenever I had a hand that I thought might be good, but I wasn't sure. But then I got beat by the free card too many times, so I started raising the flop, betting the turn, and checking the river. The thing is, here, I had no reason to fear giving a free card, so I should of checked.

Anyway, he check-raised me. Now I'm 98% sure I'm beat, so what do I do? I call him down. WTF am I thinking? I know better than to do this, but I do it anyway. What do I need to do to keep myself from playing like a fish. Knowing better obviously isn't enough.

Anyway, he shows Aces full of Jacks.

[KingOtter]

I usually bet with pocket K's when a second Ace hits the board.

Why? Because the chances of someone having an ace in their hand just plummeted.

Check-raise though would be tough, and it would depend on my opponent whether I fold or not. Tight, reasonable post-flop player? Fold. A bit laggy with a history of trying to take pots? Call down.

KO

[Kuanti]

I don't find that your turn bet was dumb. It might not have been a value bet, but it gave you the information you were looking for. The bottom line is that your pocket KK's (or any big holding) can't win every time, and you really have to get over your fear of folding them or else it'll just keep costing you.

[iluzion]

a fish? no. a fish wouldnt be aggressive, expecially not with this hand. that personally looks like how I would play it. an aggressive player would come out aggressive like this with a few weaker hands than yours. KK KJ QJ QQ JT would all play this fairly similar. once check-raised on the turn theres a really good chance your not against any of those hands, so from then on i just call down and feel fishy.

[chesspain]

Your first mistake was raising the flop. What were you hoping to accomplish by that?

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't find that your turn bet was dumb. It might not have been a value bet, but it gave you the information you were looking for. The bottom line is that your pocket KK's (or any big holding) can't win every time, and you really have to get over your fear of folding them or else it'll just keep costing you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any point in betting for info on the turn, when you can check/call the river for the same price?

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
Your first mistake was raising the flop. What were you hoping to accomplish by that?

[/ QUOTE ]

By raising the flop, I hope to limit the number of players who enter the pot, thereby reducing the chance that I get outdrawn. This also ensures that I get more money from each player entering the pot. Since I stand to win more than my fair share of pots, I want to extract a premium from those who do call.

Why do you think raising was a mistake?

[Simplistic]

he means raising post flop. I dont' really like your play on the streets here. if i'm first to act I'll bet the flop, and although your raise isn't bad here, if he calls then you shut down and are done with the hand. any thoughts?

[Kuanti]

If he has an Ace there's no card on the river that could help you, but only cards that could get you into bigger trouble. If he checks your turn bet, you're most likely ahead and can get maximum value. But if he check-raises you like he did, it's a safe fold. It seems like you're prepared to pay 1 bet regardless right? You might aswell be the one who bets.

I'm definitely not a pro, and I'd sure like to get some feedback aswell since I'm here to learn. I'm just giving you my train of thought.

EDIT: A 3rd King would give you a full-house, so there is a card that could help you.

[chesspain]

I'm talking about the raise after the flop.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your first mistake was raising the flop. What were you hoping to accomplish by that?

[/ QUOTE ]

By raising the flop, I hope to limit the number of players who enter the pot, thereby reducing the chance that I get outdrawn. This also ensures that I get more money from each player entering the pot. Since I stand to win more than my fair share of pots, I want to extract a premium from those who do call.

Why do you think raising was a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

A situation like this is covered in SSHE (not sure what page since I dont have it here). If you had QQ up against a K on the flop I like the raise. However many more people hold A-rag then K-rag. Raising here does help to isolate villians hand though. I think that the second A I might check fold. Your hand definately seems cracked. The only hands you beat are villian overplaying a pair of Jacks.

Greg

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm talking about the raise after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to take control of the hand. I was not sure whether I was ahead or not, and wanted to get to show down as cheaply as possible. I hoped that by raising, I would get him to check to me, so that I could skip a big bet on the turn or on the river, thereby saving myself half a bet if I was behind.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising here does help to isolate villians hand though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that it is heads-up on the flop?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


I was trying to take control of the hand. I was not sure whether I was ahead or not, and wanted to get to show down as cheaply as possible. I hoped that by raising, I would get him to check to me, so that I could skip a big bet on the turn or on the river, thereby saving myself half a bet if I was behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really worth saving a 1/2 of a SB when you risk him folding immediately to your reraise a hand like 77 or QJ?

[TomBrooks]

I like betting out on the turn because a second ace on the board means it is less likely the villian has one in his hand. However, I fold to his raise unless I know him to be a frequent bluffer or a maniac.

[turaho]

[ QUOTE ]
I hoped that by raising, I would get him to check to me, so that I could skip a big bet on the turn or on the river, thereby saving myself half a bet if I was behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then you bet the turn when it was checked to you. I'd check through the turn and either call a bet on the river or bet if checked to on the river. Way ahead/way behind kind of thing.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising here does help to isolate villians hand though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that it is heads-up on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont mean isolate like get everyone else out of the pot. It was unclear wording. I mean to narrow down the hand possibilities to see if Hero is ahead or behind.

It seems that hero is very far ahead or very far behind and if it were me I would feel confidant folding to a reraise on the flop. Plus raising here for the info only costs 1 small bet more. It seems that it might be better then check calling the turn and river with no information and spending 2BB to see that villian had an ace all along.

Greg

[Kuanti]

The way I see it, the best play on the turn is to bet. You will only get raised by a hand that beats you (so you can safely fold), but you can drag on several hands that you beat (such as QQ, KQ, KJ, QJ, KT, QT, J-rag, rag-rag). Wouldn't this maximize your winnings but minimize your losses? I'm just a noob though.

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, the best play on the turn is to bet. You will only get raised by a hand that beats you (so you can safely fold), but you can drag on several hands that you beat (such as QQ, KQ, KJ, QJ, KT, QT, J-rag, rag-rag). Wouldn't this maximize your winnings but minimize your losses? I'm just a noob though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be right. The thing is that betting the turn opens you up for a check raise bluff, which, if successful, will cost 5.25 big bets, plus the additional bet you would win on the river. There is also the chance that he has a weak ace, and will simply call down because he isn't sure if it is good, in which case it costs an extra bet. There are pros and cons to betting and to checking, but i'm not sure which one outweighs the other.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that hero is very far ahead or very far behind and if it were me I would feel confidant folding to a reraise on the flop. Plus raising here for the info only costs 1 small bet more. It seems that it might be better then check calling the turn and river with no information and spending 2BB to see that villian had an ace all along.


[/ QUOTE ]

1. What if BB is rightfully afraid of Hero having a bigger ace, so he only calls the flop raise with his A7? Consequently, unless BB is the meekest of the meek, Hero will be putting in another BB on either the turn or the river, meaning that he's still putting in 2BB in total post-flop, unless he's prepared to check behind on the turn and then fold the river, which would be very weak play.

2. You say to raise the flop for information. Let's say BB folds to the flop raise. Are you likely to be happy about learning that you just pushed BB off a hand that was likely drawing to only 2-5 outs in this small pot?

Consequently, I believe that raising the flop (vs. calling down) causes you to lose nearly as much when you are behind, but with the risk of winning way less when you are ahead.

[Kuanti]

If he can check-raise bluff, he's a better man than I.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: A 3rd King would give you a full-house, so there is a card that could help you.

[/ QUOTE ]

...a losing full house.

[pokerrookie]

If he only calls, I think I go into check/call mode. Not sure I throw it away, but I do think the good laydown separates the men from the boys at low limits.

[chopchoi]

[ QUOTE ]
Consequently, I believe that raising the flop (vs. calling down) causes you to lose nearly as much when you behind, but with the risk of winning way less when you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
If he only calls, I think I go into check/call mode. Not sure I throw it away, but I do think the good laydown separates the men from the boys at low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

[SCfuji]

heads up? call call call

[Kuanti]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: A 3rd King would give you a full-house, so there is a card that could help you.

[/ QUOTE ]

...a losing full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well of course if we knew he had AJ all along.