Debate my slowplay - 6 way I floppaflush

[Tilt]

Table is full of maniacs on PCP. Every pot is raised, most are reraised. Its not uncommon to see UTG open raise with A2. My table image is super tight, if anyone is paying attention.

50NL full ring - relavant stacks:

I am in the BB with Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and a $65 stack
MP1 - $85
MP2 - $45
CO - $44
Button - $15
SB - $90

Preflop all players above limp around to button who makes it $2. Every pot has been raised and reraised, and he has been raising 40% of hands. SB calls, I call, everyone calls.

My thinking here was that given the action no one had a monster, so I'll play cause if I hit I can get paid well from these guys.

Flop - Pot is $12

2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

OK, I am going for the slowplay here. I am not afraid of a higher flush, and I am not afraid to chuck this if the board 4 flushes. I am looking to double or triple up here.

I check, checks all around to button who bets $1. SB calls, I call hoping that someone with a queen will push against his obvious weak bluff, but everyone else calls.

Now I am even less afraid of a 4 flush. At least 4 other spades are accounted for by the action IMO.

Turn - pot is $18 K /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check. I am hoping someone has at least KJ and will now open up. Instead it checks around to button who bets $2, I call, everyone calls.

River - Pot is $30

A /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets $4, I call, MP 1 raises to $8, MP 2 calls, Folds to SB who pushes, I call, MP 1 calls, MP 2 folds.

Results:
<font color="white"> SB has JsQh
MP1 has AdAh</font>

[Ghazban]

I don't like it. You have $63 in your stack with a $12 pot on the flop. You said you want to double or triple up here. How do you expect to get $63 into the pot by check/calling a miniscule flop bet and then check/calling another miniscule turn bet?

Bet the flop (2/3-full pot). The As will probably pay to see if he can hit another spade and overpair/two pair/TPTK-type hands may or may not raise you to see where you're at. Then you can either come over the top or call and get the rest in on a non-spade turn.

Slowplaying a non-nut flush is never a good way to win a big pot. If your starting stack had been $40 intsead of $65, your line might've been more acceptable. Your line worked this hand, but I think it won't more often than not.

[ScottTheFish]

I like it as long as you make sure someone catches a set on the river...Otherwise I'm thinking maniacs on PCP will call some bets on the flop and turn, or come over the top. Given the description of your opponents, any decent spade is calling, and the A will probably push.

Why would you ever slow play against maniacs?

PF call is fine, as long as you're not gonna get silly when you flop top pair and no draw like many donkeys will, but you're no donkey.

[Tilt]

All good points. But this table is full of crazies. I was confident someone would push a non-spade turn just to represent the slowplayed flush. Then I was sure that if I could dodge another spade on the river I would get paid off by a weak two pair or even TPNK.

But, if I take your line, they all fold right away, except the As. Accouting for the lack of spades remaining in the deck, I figure I have a 90% chance if winning another $25 off him, a 10% chance of losing another $40 cause I may have to pay him off given all the bluffing here, if I take your line.

With my line I figure I have a ~50% chance of winning a monster pot, a 35% chance of winning a decent pot, and a 15% chance of losing a little after I muck another spade in a 6 way field.

[etgryphon]

I dont like it. I think *MAYBE* a case can be made for the nut flush here, because then you are only really afraid of the set hitting the boat by the river which will happen like a little less than a 1/3 of the time so you can make money from a smaller flush and the set that doesn't make it there in time.

With the non-nut flush at a table of maniacs I think trying to get the maniac with the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or the person with the set to committ early is a better option. I think you want to try to get them to build the pot.

-Gryph

[Ghazban]

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But this table is full of crazies.

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But, if I take your line, they all fold right away, except the As

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I don't see how both these remarks can be true

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But this table is full of crazies.

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But, if I take your line, they all fold right away, except the As

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I don't see how both these remarks can be true

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THey are more likely to make massive bluffs than bad calls. And my table image is weak-tight, so aggression by me will be read as the goods.

I'm not usually weak tight, but at this table winning any of the last 10 pots has required an all-in at the river. Its like whoever makes the last bluff wins.

[Tilt]

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...but you're no donkey.

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Thanks man.

[Ghazban]

OK. In light of that, your line isn't terrible but its pretty risky. Flushes (especially non-nut flushes) are not hands you want to slowplay. In general, if you never get action on your flopped flushes, you should play one-card nut draws faster.

This is kind of a hijack, but how would you have played the hand if you held only the As? Check/calling works as the opponents gave you great odds to draw but I would've been leading with that, too.

[Tilt]

Its a god hijack. Like if I had AsJx? Cause I would have folded a worse AX here. This table was like Fallujah, and I was hunkered down in a manhole in the alley.

If I had AsJx, I would not have bet out into the field of 5...I was surely going to be raised. I would have watched the action as it happened, and I would have called the flop and then....sadly....folded the turn. After I called the flop I would have realized that there weren't many spades in the deck. And even at this table I am not getting paid very well for a 4 flush board. I would have treated it for what it was worth - a flush draw OOP.

My alternative would have been to c/r the flop and push the turn on anything. That would have been respected. But I figured I didn't need to bluff here, eventually one of these jokers would come crashing into a monster.

[Ghazban]

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If I had AsJx, I would not have bet out into the field of 5...I was surely going to be raised.

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So if you hold just the ace, its going to be raised but if you've already got the flush, everybody's going to fold?

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
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If I had AsJx, I would not have bet out into the field of 5...I was surely going to be raised.

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So if you hold just the ace, its going to be raised but if you've already got the flush, everybody's going to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, yeah, thats pretty inconsistent. Did I tell you that they can see my cards?

I probably would have been raised in both cases, and I would have wound up in a heads up battle that would require an all-in to win. But with the flush I was gambling that two others would get into a bluffing war and i could stack them both.

Thats why I would have either just fished a card with the As or pushed the turn if I were going to bluff it.

FWIW, my latest thinking on draws at this level is that they are really only good to draw to passively or to bluff with massively, or fold. In other words, when I semi-bluff a nut draw these days (which I will only do occasionally) I bet it like I have TPTK or 2 pair. The old lines I used to take with medium raises or leads are often sniffed out and heavily reraised. Lately I bet to generate fold equity, not to build the pot.

How would you have played AsJx here?

[Ghazban]

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How would you have played AsJx here?

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That's a tough question. I'd probably double check my cards and hope I was mistaken about having the As. Upon finding that I did indeed have it and that I couldn't change my J to the Js with sheer willpower, I'd probably check and, when button makes that tiny bet, I'd read him for weakness and check/raise the pot. Now all the limpers in the middle have to face a bet and a raise cold with the possibility that button is going to come over the top. This ought to either win me the pot on the flop or at least narrow the field substantially. From there, the hand could play out in a few different ways I don't think its useful to enumerate.

Having relative position on the preflop raiser lets you make a check/raise like this to narrow the field. If there were people between you and the raiser on both sides, things would be trickier.

[kurto]

What I find interesting about this hand... kind of off the point, is that your table of maniacs, was so passive this hand. The guy with pocket aces limps the whole way.

I remember last night, there was a maniac at one of my tables raising every hand, betting and raising every flop. Then one hand... he limped. He made a small bet, was raised, and he called. He checked to the raiser... I remember thinking, "for once, he has a hand." Sure enough, he had top 2 pair, and it was the only time he wasn't overly aggressive.

My point... a passive maniac is the one who has pocket Aces.

[Sphere]

That flop bet is terrible as you stated. With a table full of maniacs, you probably could have c/r a decent amount without them putting you on the flush. As far as the turn, it seems to be a decent play to portray weakness setting you up for the river.

It just seems too risky to let them see the turn card that cheap.