TT hand in a $100+9. Weak fold?

[Jman28]

What do you guys think? He 'told' me his hand after I waited 45 seconds to fold. I'll share that later


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t970)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1405)
UTG+2 (t970)
Hero (t1000)
MP2 (t670)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, Hero calls t15.

Flop: (t127.50) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>, Button calls t125, BB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (t377.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t500</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1127.50

[Vish]

Given the way you played the hand, you have to fold the turn, but it seems an expensive way to find out what he has. I don't like the flop bet. There's a reason you should bet into the preflop raiser with a set: the raiser tends to call with overcards and call/raise an overpair. Thus, you're unlikely to get a fold here, and if an overcard comes later, you have no idea where you are.

Given his flop call, the turn bet is also no good, as _nothing has changed_. I prefer check-calling, that way you induce a bluff from overcards and lose less against an overpair.

I guess you found out what he has: either an overpair, or huge balls to minraise the turn. Nevertheless, you spent a lot of chips and you didn't see a showdown. With a more passive line, you might see a showdown and might induce a bluff.

[Jman28]

If you check call every street, how will you ever know what he has?

He could be bluffing the whole way. If you show strength, as I did, and he plays back at you, as he did, you fold more easily.

You recommend giving a free card on that flop? Any card over T and you have no idea where you stand. That's why I charge him to see that next card. I'd be glad to just take down the pot on the flop though.

-Jman28

[Vish]

My point was, whether you bet or not, you won't really know where you are, because many preflop raisers will call with overcards. They just don't take leaders seriously, and as I said before, that's why leading with a set is so profitable. So, in other words, your flop bet didn't tell you anything. Only his turn raise told you something, and that cost you 400 chips.

It's very difficult for you to define your hand out of position, and that makes it difficult for you to define his. Maybe you've already done this, but I recommend playing no limit ring games for a couple of weeks or more--it really works wonders for out of position play. It will also make you less afraid of free cards. I think many posters here lead out too much because they think not giving free cards is more important than hand reading/extracting value.

After thinking about it some more, I think if he has you beat, it's more likely with a set than an overpair. His preflop minraise in position into two limpers would be atrocious with a big pair, but pot-building with a medium pair. That's my guess for his hand. What did he have--or say he had?

[johnnybeef]

i like your line just fine. that minraise screams of a big pair to me. the flop call and the raise on the turn all but gaurantee it.

edit: i don't like a pot bet on the flop though. i think that a bet of 100 is much more appropriate.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like a pot bet on the flop though. i think that a bet of 100 is much more appropriate.


[/ QUOTE ]

25 chips less is much more appropriate? That's a little strong of a statement, I think at least.

I really don't want callers. I want overcards to fold, because I can't tell when they hit or not. Why not charge them?

-Jman28

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you've already done this, but I recommend playing no limit ring games for a couple of weeks or more--it really works wonders for out of position play

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a good idea. I should give it a shot. Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
After thinking about it some more, I think if he has you beat, it's more likely with a set than an overpair. His preflop minraise in position into two limpers would be atrocious with a big pair, but pot-building with a medium pair. That's my guess for his hand. What did he have--or say he had?

[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on a set too. He told me he had 76 for the straight. Weird.

-Jman28

[shejk]

That's funny. It was my first thought, even though I discarded the idea soon thereafter.

As a sideline, I've been thinking along his lines lately - if you want to play suited connectors, you better raise them, even though just a little. Haven't tried it yet as I'm not sure whether it's a good idea or not.

[Apathy]

The flop bet is fine but why do you bet again on the turn? If he called on the flop with overs (pretty unlikely imo) then the turn didnt help him. That means he is either still behind (6 outs) or still way ahead. I would check and then decide what to do depending on the size of my opponents bet.

Against most decent opponents it is too likely you are drawing to two outs after your big bet is smooth called on the flop when there arent many likely draws out there. (yes I know the opponent was on a draw *this* time but it is unlikely on this board).

The only time I put up this blocking bet on the turn like you did is if my opponent is super tricky and wont go away no matter what unless you fire twice. I definetly wouldve given opponent credit for a set here unless he checked behind on the turn.

[Paul2432]

I guess I am the only one, but I raise here preflop nearly all the time. I'd probably raise to 70 or so. Ideally I would like to get heads-up against the limper (or win the pot immediately). If someone calls behind me I can put them on a much narrower range of hands.

After the flop, depending on who calls, and the texture of the board I'll play accordingly.

This is the play that Harrington recommends in HOH, and it has worked for me.

Paul

[Seadood228]

Well said.

I'd have probably went for an overbet with the intention of putting no more into the pot. If they can call a bet that large, you have to give them credit for something..

If the board were more draw-heavy, betting becomes a bit trickier.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't like a pot bet on the flop though. i think that a bet of 100 is much more appropriate.


[/ QUOTE ]

25 chips less is much more appropriate? That's a little strong of a statement, I think at least.

I really don't want callers. I want overcards to fold, because I can't tell when they hit or not. Why not charge them?

-Jman28

[/ QUOTE ]

ok you win. maybe it isnt a MUCH more appropriate bet. i do however like a 2/3 - 3/4 pot size bet. any one who will fold to a pot sized bet will almost certainly fold to a 3/4 bet. remember..those chips you save may just be the ones that win you the tournament