Betting Impetus or Lunacy? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 01:36 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1130)
UTG (t1245)
MP (t205)
Button (t2310)
SB (t3110)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t200) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t400) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t400, SB folds.

Final Pot: t900

SuitedSixes

03-31-2005, 01:40 AM

Edited because I forgot I am forum host and supposed to be nice this week.

gasgod

03-31-2005, 01:41 AM

Neither. Looks like a good read to me.

GG

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your play, constantly, blows my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too aggressive?

Creeper_thp

03-31-2005, 01:49 AM

What buy-in are these at?

EverettKings

03-31-2005, 01:50 AM

I like it, but I might like raising the flop more.

As you well know, no way does this 1200 chip kid want to put a substantial number of chips in play with the 230 stack yet to bust. It's basically like being 4 handed on the bubble.

That said, I'd just assume not give him a free card so that his Ax can spike an ace on you, or let some straight or flush draw get there. There's 300 chips up for grabs, so take them now.

The only kicker is if your opponent is a good/very good player (what stakes is this?). If I'm in the SB here with Jx, and you raise my flop bet I'm likely all in over the top. If you pop me on the turn.... I might back off.

But against your average opponent, take it on the flop. And if he so much as considers a call, shut down.

-Kings

The Yugoslavian

03-31-2005, 01:53 AM

Ugh....alright dude, yes you can sorta get away with just saying 'betting impetus' willy nilly....but no one will know wtf you're talking about.

For example, yes you had betting impetus here...in fact, you have it any hand you've ever played. You held off on using it until a decent moment.....If you're going to go for this pot, I guess you might as well do it on the turn after a nice, weak SB bet.

Now, for the more important question. Does SB walk his monsters this way or merely min-bet out like this willy nilly (similarly to how you're using the term 'betting impetus')?

FWIW I don't really like your line all that much. I assume you're planning on folding if SB comes over the top, yes? I don't like putting in another 100 chips on the flop to *maybe* get a chance to take down a 500 chip pot while there is still quite a bit of risk involved.

I think a better idea is abusing Mr. UTG....

I don't really *hate* your play, but I'm just not sold it's worth it minus any read on the villian.

Also, what buyin? Prolly matters somewhat.

Yugoslav

SuitedSixes

03-31-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your play, constantly, blows my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too aggressive?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too unnecessary, remember Lorinda 3:16.

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Your play, constantly, blows my mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Too aggressive?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Too unnecessary, remember Lorinda 3:16.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't remember, please enlighten me.

SuitedSixes

03-31-2005, 02:13 AM

"Do you need this pot?"

microbet

03-31-2005, 02:18 AM

I don't know for sure, but I think he means you should ask yourself "Do I need this pot?"

I wouldn't mind this gambool here so much except you are tangling with the chip leader and just about committing yourself to the pot, with a bet that isn't all that threatening to him.

If you were going to go after this pot, I would think it would have to be a push on the turn. To do that, I would think you would need a very solid read that BS is willing to fold, and that BS is a bully who isn't letting you steal blinds from the other stacks.

microbet

03-31-2005, 02:19 AM

Jeebus, it took me 5 minutes to write my post!

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what buyin? Prolly matters somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

My typical $33

Table reads: My bad, I should have provided. Villain had history of completing. This was the second time this had occurred to me.

I was not using the term betting impetus willy nilly, btw. IMO, I used the term correctly. And I'm using it for dual reasons (which I'm sure you can guess).

So to my subject line. I am asking, am I using this dangerous weapon foolishly here?

I got your answer:
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I don't really like your line all that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is untreaded water for me. Am I reading things correctly, just by judging betting behavior. The one table read I had high confidence in was that he was not slow playing a monster. And you know me, I'm always wary of that, I'm surprised you bring this up, as you NEVER worry about it (at least that was your thing in the past - that I give too much credit to the sleeping monster).

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"Do you need this pot?"

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, there is just as much risk of ruin trying to steal a pot pushing into the BB. It's still 5 handed. I am on the low end of the totem pole of the 4 bigger stacks. I am beginning to ask myself if it's important to take advantage of a table read that would permit me to be a little more selective in my steal attempts going forward.

The Yugoslavian

03-31-2005, 02:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
as you NEVER worry about it (at least that was your thing in the past - that I give too much credit to the sleeping monster).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't worry about it much unless given reason.....I have been given reason to worry about them before in certain situations......more often than not I just get punished by monsters every so often (read: not that often).....however, some players will call and/or push with marginal yet better than non-existent holdings....

Yugoslav

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you were going to go after this pot, I would think it would have to be a push on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a consideration. I felt that a 400 chip bet would be the 'right' amount to get villain to fold, if he was going to fold. Based on that 'feel', that is the right amount to bet. No?

But his bet did look weak right? Let's assume villain was not slow playing a monster (which was another read of mine).

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
more often than not I just get punished by monsters every so often

[/ QUOTE ]

that was definatively the most non-decisive statement I've read in a while. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Scuba
Who's not sure what the point of your last post was.

citanul

03-31-2005, 02:36 AM

ok, so i'll post something on this hand.

first off, yugo's right. this doesn't appear to have much to do with betting impetus at all. it just appears to be more of a "hey look, he made a weak lead, on the turn, i'll try to snap that off, since i can represent a pretty strong hand here."

the problem i have with this play is that well, 100 is what i'm going ot lead out at you a great % of the time when i hit this board. and your play depends on well, taking a card off with junk on the flop. i don't think i call for value with the gutshot and the bd flush draw here, so a large % of the value you think you're extracting has to come from the idea that you think you'll be able to buy that pot later. i don't like that.

mostly the reason i don't like it is because you're a) calling off 1/10th of your stack on the flop to have the chance to make this play later and b) using 1/2 your stack to make the play on the turn.

citanul

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
mostly the reason i don't like it is because you're a) calling off 1/10th of your stack on the flop to have the chance to make this play later and b) using 1/2 your stack to make the play on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks good points.

citanul

03-31-2005, 02:48 AM

no prob

SuitedSixes

03-31-2005, 02:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks good points.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are the hands you post indicative of your normal game, or are they more like "hey, look what I got away with?"

microbet

03-31-2005, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But his bet did look weak right? Let's assume villain was not slow playing a monster (which was another read of mine).

[/ QUOTE ]

His bet totally looked weak. He bet the same amount on the turn as the flop. That is the absolute minimum he could bet while pretending to have something.

Doesn't mean I would do it, but I certainly see why you were expecting a fold.

microbet

03-31-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
more often than not I just get punished by monsters every so often

[/ QUOTE ]

that was definatively the most non-decisive statement I've read in a while. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Scuba
Who's not sure what the point of your last post was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it's perfectly clear. Sometimes he ALWAYS gets punished by monsters. Sometimes he NEVER gets punished by monsters. But, more often than not, he gets punished by monsters every so often.

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are the hands you post indicative of your normal game, or are they more like "hey, look what I got away with?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of my posts fall into one of two categories.

1) $EV questions
2) Learning to play postflop/table reads

The lion share of my posts are category 1. But as it has been blatantly pointed out to me "Scuba is a good pusher and folder" and that I have little postflop skills, I post some of my postflop hands.

If you figure I play about 500+ SNGs a month. Let's say each SNG averages 70 hands that I actually am seeing (as I have finished in 10th this week on the first hand when my Kings were busted by 9s), that's about 35,000 hands a month. So you're seeing very few of my hands. So, no, you're not seeing too much of my typical game.

In terms of my own introspective opinion of myself. I think I am a solid player with little to no creativity. I'd like to change some of that second part.

Scuba

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 03:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
more often than not I just get punished by monsters every so often

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that was definatively the most non-decisive statement I've read in a while.

Scuba
Who's not sure what the point of your last post was.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nah, it's perfectly clear. Sometimes he ALWAYS gets punished by monsters. Sometimes he NEVER gets punished by monsters. But, more often than not, he gets punished by monsters every so often.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO

Vish

03-31-2005, 03:10 AM

The stacks aren't deep enough for creativity. Make the raise to $400 on the flop if you must, not the turn. You'll get much more credit that way. If the minbetter bets again on the turn, they usually have something, and they're well aware that their small bets may have induced a bluff--thus I think you'll get looked up here pretty often.

Apathy

03-31-2005, 03:11 AM

The bluff call on the flop is to large a portion of your stack imo (as other posters have mentioned). I assume when you called this you had a plan for the turn, what was your plan if he checked to you? I often take funny lines as the SB like min bet, check-raise all in (80% TP or better 20% semibluff), because I don't want anyone to mess with me, and people always play blind battles strangely (i.e they bluff way too much)

So what are your plans if he a. checks and b. bets 200 (assume you fold to wny other bet over 200)

SuitedSixes

03-31-2005, 03:12 AM

Fair enough. So the posts you make are about the hands where you are trying new things?

curtains

03-31-2005, 03:21 AM

It's nice to see some creativity out of you, although I'm not sure the term betting impetus has much to do with it.

There is really no "right" or "wrong" way to play here, it depends on so many factors. You could fold the flop, call the flop, raise the flop and make a strong case for every play.

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. So the posts you make are about the hands where you are trying new things?

[/ QUOTE ]

100%

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is really no "right" or "wrong" way to play here, it depends on so many factors. You could fold the flop, call the flop, raise the flop and make a strong case for every play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains, how come your opinion is so much different than everybody else's?

BTW, IMO there is really only room for one creative play like this per game, and generally when it's starting to get tight, when I'm confident they're paying attention. But I still get the sense that this is a foolish play.

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 11:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So what are your plans if he a. checks and b. bets 200 (assume you fold to wny other bet over 200)

[/ QUOTE ]

a) betting the same as the reraise
b) folds

steeser

03-31-2005, 11:12 AM

The only problem that I see is that calling with the intention of raising the turn and stealing the pot is very difficult in a short stacked tournament. Deeper stacks I love the play.

spentrent

03-31-2005, 11:13 AM

I love the play. Short-handed poker is about sniffing out weakness and pouncing on it. You must think "I bet you don't" instead of "I bet I do."

Gotta select your target, however. A stronger player will notice that you don't call for value very often -- if at all -- and will bait you to make this play.

I'm less likely to pull this one out in a game where I'm not confident that the typical player is capable of folding. You're playing with fire against the big stack.

Alpha Fhish

03-31-2005, 11:18 AM

Lunacy.

Fhish
bubbleo0o0bubbleo0o0

Irieguy

03-31-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The stacks aren't deep enough for creativity. Make the raise to $400 on the flop if you must, not the turn. You'll get much more credit that way. If the minbetter bets again on the turn, they usually have something, and they're well aware that their small bets may have induced a bluff--thus I think you'll get looked up here pretty often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is the opposite of good.

Irieguy

Irieguy

03-31-2005, 01:12 PM

I disagree with just about everybody. You played the hand well. If you had been playing tight up until this point, it was likely perfect timing, and you were against the best opponent for this type of nonsense.

I like your raise amount... it's dangerous and stupid-looking... the kind of thing somebody does with a monster.

This is strong bubble play. An opponent capable of your play makes it very difficult for the big stack to bully you as a medium stack.

Bravo.

Irieguy

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bravo.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thanks. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

sofere

03-31-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like your raise amount... it's dangerous and stupid-looking... the kind of thing somebody does with a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were big stack, I don't think I would put my opponent on a monster. With 11xbb, KK and JJ would not likely check in the big blind, maybe AA would but I doubt it. So the only monsters would be KJ, and 44. And neither of them would want to give a free card to a straight or flush draw, especially when winning the hand right there would increase their stack by nearly 30% and enable easier steals against UTG in the future.

Now a non-scare card hits on the turn and theres a weak bet from SB followed by a raise of half his stack by BB. I'd see this as either the 5 being a miracle card that gave him 2 pair, or a weak resteal attempt with second pair or worse (more likely the latter).

If I were BB, I think i'd need to have at least a pair of jacks with a decent kicker to come over the top here. I would not be scared of a monster, but I wouldn't reraise with A high either.

I think this would look a lot more like a monster if there were no obvious draw possiblities on the board.

BTW there is no way I would have thought of all this at the table, AND I may just be completely off.

Paul2432

03-31-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like your raise amount... it's dangerous and stupid-looking... the kind of thing somebody does with a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were big stack, I don't think I would put my opponent on a monster. With 11xbb, KK and JJ would not likely check in the big blind, maybe AA would but I doubt it. So the only monsters would be KJ, and 44. And neither of them would want to give a free card to a straight or flush draw, especially when winning the hand right there would increase their stack by nearly 30% and enable easier steals against UTG in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

"monster" is a relative term. In this situation, top pair with an OK kicker is a monster. Also, free cards are far less dangerous in a heads up situation.

Frankly, I think there is a reasonable chance that scuba was not bluffing, but in fact had the best hand.

Paul

Bigwig

03-31-2005, 02:01 PM

I'dve raised preflop.

Has anyone else suggested this?

spentrent

03-31-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'dve raised preflop.

Has anyone else suggested this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have been all-in pre-flop but that seems a standard enough play that requires no mention in Chuck's "I did something weird this time" threads.

Scuba Chuck

03-31-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'dve raised preflop.

Has anyone else suggested this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have been all-in pre-flop but that seems a standard enough play that requires no mention in Chuck's "I did something weird this time" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I'm over-thinking what I'm about to say (which is common). I'd prefer to save that move for another time (Reraising allin). How many times can I reraise allin with a guy who likes to complete before you need to worry about him setting a trap? This was level 4, I prefer to wait until blinds are higher. I'm not desperate here ...am I?

[ QUOTE ]
in Chuck's "I did something weird this time" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, I hope you mean to be funny. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Stated somewhere, in this post or another, is that my objective is to learn to be more creative, and not so straight-forward. So yes, I did something "weird." I'm looking for those who play in the more creative category to give me some input on how my line was severely poor, or, you're on the right track, but I would tweak it like this...

Scuba
who makes plenty of mistakes, and is not afraid to post 'em.

PS: the following came from a Strasser MTT post recently:

[ QUOTE ]
Barry Greenstein once wrote something that really changed my outlook on poker in general. On his website, he described a player as being 'solid', and it had extreme negative conotations. Is that a good thing? No. Solid means shitty. Its sweet that you can reraise before the flop with premium hands, fold shitty ones, and play right along with your cards. Some people do well (esp online with all the terrible play). But if you want to become a real tournament player, you don't want to be solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a doubt, from personal experience, solid play at the lower level SNGs will crush these games. But my thoughts are that post flop play and creativity could/should give me an additional edge here, and learn at a cheaper pace than at MTTs. (I also play SNGs at PS now, so no need to give that advice).

My goals include MTTs, so I will begin to expand my horizons from just being a 'solid' player.

curtains

03-31-2005, 02:38 PM

A lot of people have a much different definition of "solid".

curtains

03-31-2005, 02:40 PM

Scuba, plays like this are usually more valuable in Multis, at least in my opinion. I don't think anyone should call this play terrible, without some serious knowledge of the opponent and the feel of the table.

Your line is a pretty standard way of playing in some situations, and although I probably wouldn't have played the hand like you, I'd have a difficult time criticizing someone who did.

spentrent

03-31-2005, 03:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm over-thinking what I'm about to say (which is common). I'd prefer to save that move for another time (Reraising allin). How many times can I reraise allin with a guy who likes to complete before you need to worry about him setting a trap? This was level 4, I prefer to wait until blinds are higher. I'm not desperate here ...am I?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got ~1000 after posting, yeah? I think that the 200 chips in the pot are worth stealing right now. And again later. And maybe another time if he keeps limping.

It's getting too late in the game for his traps to be profitable. He's still gotta get dealt a monster before he can trap you.

Try this one day: every time you're in the BB with less than 15BBs in your stack, make this play with any two if the SB open-completes. Get a piece of paper and make two columns. Mark the times you are caught in one column and the times you are successful in the other column*. Watch out for anomalies like a tiny stack limping or your push laying correct odds, etc.

*EDIT: Getting caught but winning the pot still counts in the caught column.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in Chuck's "I did something weird this time" threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, I hope you mean to be funny. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Stated somewhere, in this post or another, is that my objective is to learn to be more creative, and not so straight-forward. So yes, I did something "weird." I'm looking for those who play in the more creative category to give me some input on how my line was severely poor, or, you're on the right track, but I would tweak it like this...

[/ QUOTE ]

Creative Play Primer

(1) If you were your opponent, what series of plays will make you think you're up against a monster?

(2) Do that.

Your play reflects a slow-played monster. You've already read the Creative Play Primer?

I think it would be nice if the primer included anecdotes... sorta like a book of guitar licks.