Palestinian women suffer violence

[Dead]

More "fair" treatment from the Israelis...


Palestinian women suffer violence (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6BBC34B-B1FE-4A62-9252-9C3A307D3B7E.htm)

Palestinian women are suffering intimidation and violence at the hands of Israeli security forces and within their own community, Amnesty International said in a report.

Some have been forced to give birth at Israeli checkpoints because they are not allowed through to hospitals, while others are subject to "honour killings" by relatives.

The human rights group said women in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip were increasingly the victims of both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"Palestinian women have borne the brunt of the escalation of the conflict and decades of Israeli occupation, while in Palestinian society they are subjected to a system of laws and norms that treats them as unequal members of society," it said...

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
More "fair" treatment from the Israelis...


Palestinian women suffer violence (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6BBC34B-B1FE-4A62-9252-9C3A307D3B7E.htm)

Palestinian women are suffering intimidation and violence at the hands of Israeli security forces and within their own community, Amnesty International said in a report.

Some have been forced to give birth at Israeli checkpoints because they are not allowed through to hospitals, while others are subject to "honour killings" by relatives.

The human rights group said women in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip were increasingly the victims of both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"Palestinian women have borne the brunt of the escalation of the conflict and decades of Israeli occupation, while in Palestinian society they are subjected to a system of laws and norms that treats them as unequal members of society," it said...

[/ QUOTE ]

The Israelis treat the Palestinians like [censored]. Everyone already knows this. Your point?

[Dead]

NO. Some people on here don't know it.

I'm referring to the other two Jewish posters that I know of on this forum. In their eyes, Israel can do no wrong.

And there are plenty of others as well.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
NO. Some people on here don't know it.

I'm referring to the other two Jewish posters that I know of on this forum. In their eyes, Israel can do no wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? There are people who don't know this? Or do they just not care? I suspect it is mostly the latter.

[Dead]

They deny it.

They claim that going into a Palestinian village and shooting children is an appropriate punishment after a suicide bombing.
I don't think it is.

As a Jewish person, I am disgusted by the atrocities of the Israeli government. You'd think that the Israelis and their descendants would have learned something after the events of 60 years ago in Europe.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]


As a Jewish person, I am disgusted by the atrocities of the Israeli government. You'd think that the Israelis and their descendants would have learned something after the events of 60 years ago in Europe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this, except the part about being Jewish.

[Dead]

In my mind, Israel is an apartheid state.

I tell this to some of my Jewish friends. They all laugh and tell me about how Israel is a democracy, so it can't be an apartheid state. I would laugh as well except that it's not funny. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
In my mind, Israel is an apartheid state.

I tell this to some of my Jewish friends. They all laugh and tell me about how Israel is a democracy, so it can't be an apartheid state. I would laugh as well except that it's not funny. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The Israelis and Palestinians are both at fault. I think Israel should take most of the blame, however, mainly becuase they are in a much better position to fix the problem. They just don't want to.

[BCPVP]

From Aljazeera..... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Seriously though, this article seems to show that the actual violence is being perpetrated by the Palestinians.

I'm not saying that forcing Palestinian women to give birth in the street is ok, but your opening sentence seems to be morally equating or even putting more blame on the Israelis.

[Dead]

I don't deny that the Palestinians should be blamed for some of it as well, but I think that the vast majority of the Palestinian blame should be placed on the Palestinian leaders, and not the masses.

I also believe that Sharon is a large obstacle to peace.

Yitzhak Rabin was moving us in the right direction, and he was a great leader. Unfortunately, some right-wing Israeli bastard got involved, and ended his life.

Violence begets violence. Look how much more peaceful things were in 1992.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't deny that the Palestinians should be blamed for some of it as well, but I think that the vast majority of the Palestinian blame should be placed on the Palestinian leaders, and not the masses.

I also believe that Sharon is a large obstacle to peace.

Yitzhak Rabin was moving us in the right direction, and he was a great leader. Unfortunately, some right-wing Israeli bastard got involved, and ended his life.

Violence begets violence. Look how much more peaceful things were in 1992.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sharon is a terrorist in the truest sense of the word.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't deny that the Palestinians should be blamed for some of it as well, but I think that the vast majority of the Palestinian blame should be placed on the Palestinian leaders, and not the masses.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why did you open with "More "fair" treatment from the Israelis"? That's a pretty inflammatory thing to say, especially when the more heinous of the two crimes talked about was being committed by Palestinians.

[Dead]

I try to read AlJazeera almost every day(I'm so glad they started putting out an English version), and this article jumped out at me.

[ QUOTE ]
but your opening sentence seems to be morally equating or even putting more blame on the Israelis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am putting most of the blame on the Israelis. As I said above, Ariel Sharon is the main obstacle to peace. I question why the Israeli state was even created. Too bad that you can't accuse me of being anti-semitic now. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't deny that the Palestinians should be blamed for some of it as well, but I think that the vast majority of the Palestinian blame should be placed on the Palestinian leaders, and not the masses.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why did you open with "More "fair" treatment from the Israelis"? That's a pretty inflammatory thing to say, especially when the more heinous of the two crimes talked about was being committed by Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would assign about 15-20% of the blame to the Palestinians. When Israelis are responsible for more than 80% of it(and I think that I'm actually giving a conservative estimate here), it's only right to blame them for most of it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Ariel Sharon is the main obstacle to peace. I

[/ QUOTE ] I would have to say people blowing themselves up in a packed bus is the biggest obstacle to peace.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ariel Sharon is the main obstacle to peace. I

[/ QUOTE ] I would have to say people blowing themselves up in a packed bus is the biggest obstacle to peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does the method of killing matter? How is blowing yourself up in a packed bus any different from firing rockets from a helicopter and killing people? This makes no sense. Both sides kill. The Israelis kill more people. If the Palestinians had missles, jets, helicopters, and tanks like the Israelis do, they wouldn't have to use suicide bombers.

[Dead]

I would wager that the Israeli army running over American citizens with bulldozers does not do much for peace either.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

"RAFAH, Gaza (CNN) -- An Israeli bulldozer killed an American woman Sunday who had been protesting its use to destroy Palestinian houses in Rafah.

The woman, Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Washington, was taken to a hospital, where she died of her injuries. She was a senior at Evergreen State College in Olympia but was not enrolled this quarter, the school said."

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I would wager that the Israeli army running over American citizens with bulldozers does not do much for peace either.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

"RAFAH, Gaza (CNN) -- An Israeli bulldozer killed an American woman Sunday who had been protesting its use to destroy Palestinian houses in Rafah.

The woman, Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Washington, was taken to a hospital, where she died of her injuries. She was a senior at Evergreen State College in Olympia but was not enrolled this quarter, the school said."

[/ QUOTE ]


Blah blah blah, yeah I know this story, and no one gave a [censored] in WA when this happened.

I don't care at all either about this, and to be honest with you I don't feel like discussing this topic again(which has been discussed literally 1000 times on this forum before). I simply gave my opinion on this matter and FYI I will not be supporting my opinion with any sort of facts/anecdotes/etc.

deal with it.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
no one gave a [censored] in WA when this happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Her parents gave a [censored]. I think that they gave a lot of shits.

And if you don't want to back up what you are saying with sources and actually debate stuff, then why bother responding to politics posts?

-Dead

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
I simply gave my opinion on this matter and FYI I will not be supporting my opinion with any sort of facts/anecdotes/etc.

deal with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, because there are few facts/anecdotes/etc. to support your opinion.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Her parents gave a [censored]. I think that they gave a lot of shits.

[/ QUOTE ] good for them. The rest of America doesn't care, she was in a dangerous area, [censored] happens.


[ QUOTE ]

And if you don't want to back up what you are saying with sources and actually debate stuff, then why bother responding to politics posts?

[/ QUOTE ] last time I checked, I didn't need anyones permission to post anywhere on this forum.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I simply gave my opinion on this matter and FYI I will not be supporting my opinion with any sort of facts/anecdotes/etc.

deal with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, because there are few facts/anecdotes/etc. to support your opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]ah..... right...... the whole Israeli/Arab debate is one of the most innane, idiotic arguments ever because both sides always think they are 100% right and never acknowledge valid points from either side.

Truth be told, I fall more in the middle on this issue. Both sides seem like they are screwing everything up, but I guess that stance doesn't fly for ardent supporters of either side.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
good for them. The rest of America doesn't care, she was in a dangerous area, [censored] happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that I don't have as cavalier an attitude about innocent human life as you seem to have.


[ QUOTE ]
last time I checked, I didn't need anyones permission to post anywhere on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

And neither do I. I wasn't telling you that you shouldn't or couldn't post. I just asked you why you would bother responding to threads which you don't care about?

But please stop trying to stifle discussion of the issues at hand, by saying that it's been brought up before. It wasn't brought up when I was around, and the Middle East situation is still very much current. And this is the politics forum after all. It's certainly fair game.

-Dead

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am putting most of the blame on the Israelis.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm confused as to how it is Sharon's fault, or any Israelis' for that matter, that there are Palestinian women being killed by Palestinian me... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I simply gave my opinion on this matter and FYI I will not be supporting my opinion with any sort of facts/anecdotes/etc.

deal with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, because there are few facts/anecdotes/etc. to support your opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]ah..... right...... the whole Israeli/Arab debate is one of the most innane, idiotic arguments ever because both sides always think they are 100% right and never acknowledge valid points from either side.

Truth be told, I fall more in the middle on this issue. Both sides seem like they are screwing everything up, but I guess that stance doesn't fly for ardent supporters of either side.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have already said in this thread that both sides are to blame.

[Dead]

That is not the main point of the story, imo.

Honor killing is a horrible practice, but so is shooting innocent kids.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Your link is from al-jazeera.net
The same people who claim the USA attack Iraqi civilians with poison gas....
So excuse me if I never believe anything from that source again.

As for the "honour killings" is this not Arabs killing Arab women?
So for why do Israelis get the blame for this?

As for the Palestinians, they are not very smart. For example, the raise and solicit money for suicide bombers (aka murder bombers), recruit suicide bombers, infiltrate they way past Israeli border gaurds, and then they blow up Israeli civilians. And now the punchline, they get upset when the Israeli border guards don't greet them with flowers and candy....

I suppose it has never crossed their minds there may be a connection with their support of murdering Jews and the treatment they get from Israeli border guards. If anything, Israel deserves a medal for even letting Palestinians come into Israeli territory... Israel needs to finish building their wall, lock the gates, and let the Arabs go back to killing eachother...on the other side of the wall.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
That is not the main point of the story, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is almost, if not exactly, half of the point of the story; that Palestinian women are suffering from abuse by both sides.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]



As for the Palestinians, they are not very smart. For example, the raise and solicit money for suicide bombers (aka murder bombers), recruit suicide bombers, infiltrate they way past Israeli border gaurds, and then they blow up Israeli civilians. And now the punchline, they get upset when the Israeli border guards don't greet them with flowers and candy....

[/ QUOTE ]

Isreal kills more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. The difference is the method of killing. It is asinine to say killing with a grenade strapped to your waist is worse than shooting a missle at somebody. Killing is killing.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"Extending life expectancies by not stepping in front of bulldozers"
Taught by Professor Common Cense

[Dead]

They should not build the wall on land that is not theirs. If they want to build it behind the green line then ok. But they don't want to. They are encroaching on disputed land.

And they should dismantle the settlements.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
"Extending life expectancies by not stepping in front of bulldozers"
Taught by Professor Common Cense

[/ QUOTE ]

How about "avoiding a trip to hell by not purposely killing innocent civilians".

She was an American civilian. The U.S. should have ripped Israel hard on that one.

[ThaSaltCracka]

what's worse:
Israeli army killing or attacking suspects? Remember this army is in uniform.

Palestinian civilians killing or attacking civilians?

I certainly realize Israelis kill innocent bystanders, which is horrible, but I can't help think that if Palestinians didn't attack Israeli civis, the Israeli army wouldn't attack any Palestinians.

sorry, I realize thats simplistic, but thats my view.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
They claim that going into a Palestinian village and shooting children is an appropriate punishment after a suicide bombing.
I don't think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

show me evidence of israel or any poster justifying this.

[chabibi]

what do expect israel to do?

the palestinians constantly use red cresent ambulances and people desguised as sick or pregnant to sneak terrorists in to the country. israel has no choice but to stop all palestinians before allowing them across the checkpoint

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
what's worse:
Israeli army killing or attacking suspects? Remember this army is in uniform.

Palestinian civilians killing or attacking civilians?

I certainly realize Israelis kill innocent bystanders, which is horrible, but I can't help think that if Palestinians didn't attack Israeli civis, the Israeli army wouldn't attack any Palestinians.

sorry, I realize thats simplistic, but thats my view.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a cycle. Both sides are killing in "retaliation." Of course Palestinians don't attack the Israeli army. The Israeli army (funded in part by the U.S.) has tanks, jets, missiles, and all sorts of other goodies. The Palestinians have rocks and grenades. Calling one side "terrorists" because they are poor isn't right. Perhaps the U.S. should outfit the Palestinians with military supplies. That way the two armies could go at it and leave the civilians out of it as much as possible. That isn't going to happen, so the Palestinians fight back the only way they can.

[Dead]

The Palestinians are just responding to the daily silent violence of the Israelis.

Palestinians currently living in Israel are regarded as "Non-Jews" and face a lot of discrimination. They are also denied lots of job opportunities as many jobs require previous military service(which they obviously don't have).

Israel is practicing a form of apartheid on the Palestinians, similar to the plight of blacks in South Africa.

Also, the Palestinian resistance to the occupation could be considered a right, granted by the Geneva Conventions.

[Anadrol 50]

Get into S.O.D. This band had some great lyrics regarding the Middle East.

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/sod/speakenglishordie.html#16

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
what do expect israel to do?

the palestinians constantly use red cresent ambulances and people desguised as sick or pregnant to sneak terrorists in to the country. israel has no choice but to stop all palestinians before allowing them across the checkpoint

[/ QUOTE ]


who cares about the bigger picture. i mean the poor woman was not allowed through!

[ThaSaltCracka]

I realize its a cycle, I just lean more torward Israel side simply because I think the Palestinians have far more to gain than Israel via the route of peace, and I simply just can't understand why they don't realize that. They have all these factions fighting against Israel (some heavily funded by foreign douche bag countries), all of which are so bent on war. Sometimes I shake my head and say, figure it out dummies. Stop killing people, bring some peace, then come to the table and see what happens.

bah, I digress, why am I even here talking about this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Felix_Nietsche]

If the Plaestinians were targeting Israeli military personnel then I would agree with you 100%.
Even 1000%.

But to INTENTIONALLY target civilians is not honorable. It is also a war crime. The PLO has openly admitted that they target civilians. It has never been Israeli policy to intentionally target civlians. If the PLO sets up a mortar in a Palestinian neighborhood and fires rockets at the Israelis....Guess what... The Israelis are allowed to fire back and YES...some civilians will probably be killed...

But whose fault is that?
The PLO that chose to make a Palestinian neighborhood a battleground or the Israelis returning fire?
Several months back someone posted a link where Palestinian militants killed a fellow Palestinian because they were setting up a mortar next to his house. Not wanted his house to get blown up he told them to leave. So what did his Arab brethren do? They killed him. Nice guys huh... In retrospect that murdered man probably wishes he was dealing with ***hole Israeli border guards rather than his Arab "brothers".

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
I realize its a cycle, I just lean more torward Israel side simply because I think the Palestinians have far more to gain than Israel via the route of peace, and I simply just can't understand why they don't realize that. They have all these factions fighting against Israel (some heavily funded by foreign douche bag countries), all of which are so bent on war. Sometimes I shake my head and say, figure it out dummies. Stop killing people, bring some peace, then come to the table and see what happens.

bah, I digress, why am I even here talking about this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the Palestinians probably have more to gain, but I think Israel is in a much better position to end the cycle. They have almost all of the power.

[jesusarenque]

[ QUOTE ]
If the Plaestinians were targeting Israeli military personnel then I would agree with you 100%.
Even 1000%.

But to INTENTIONALLY target civilians is not honorable. It is also a war crime. The PLO has openly admitted that they target civilians. It has never been Israeli policy to intentionally target civlians. If the PLO sets up a mortar in a Palestinian neighborhood and fires rockets at the Israelis....Guess what... The Israelis are allowed to fire back and YES...some civilians will probably be killed...

But whose fault is that?
The PLO that chose to make a Palestinian neighborhood a battleground or the Israelis returning fire?
Several months back someone posted a link where Palestinian militants killed a fellow Palestinian because they were setting up a mortar next to his house. Not wanted his house to get blown up he told them to leave. So what did his Arab brethren do? They killed him. Nice guys huh... In retrospect that murdered man probably wishes he was dealing with ***hole Israeli border guards rather than his Arab "brothers".

[/ QUOTE ]

The Palestinians don't have the means to go toe-to-toe with the Israeli army.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize its a cycle, I just lean more torward Israel side simply because I think the Palestinians have far more to gain than Israel via the route of peace, and I simply just can't understand why they don't realize that. They have all these factions fighting against Israel (some heavily funded by foreign douche bag countries), all of which are so bent on war. Sometimes I shake my head and say, figure it out dummies. Stop killing people, bring some peace, then come to the table and see what happens.

bah, I digress, why am I even here talking about this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the Palestinians probably have more to gain, but I think Israel is in a much better position to end the cycle. They have almost all of the power.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't see how anyone can reasonably ask the Israelis to back down when their civis are intentionally targeted.

[Dead]

Here's the real question, jesus.

What does the U.S. have to gain by supporting Israel? They have no oil. They have no natural resources that they could give to us. The reason that we currently support Israel so strongly is because most of the evangelical Christians are strongly pro-Israel.

Lots of American Jews don't give a [censored] about Israel.

[Felix_Nietsche]

They have suicide bombers. They have blown up Israeli soldiers before.
So why can't they make Israeli soldiers targets of these attacks 100% of the time?

And are you implying it is OK for these suicide bombers to target civlians? /images/graemlins/confused.gif
If I has misinterpreted you, PLEASE set me straight!

[Dead]

Are you saying that the lives are soldiers are worth less than civilian lives?

Hmm, maybe that's why we went to war in Iraq. Because soldiers' lives are worth less, at least according to you.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a cycle. Both sides are killing in "retaliation."

[/ QUOTE ]

you are wrong. goto www.hamasonline.com (http://www.hamasonline.com) and read why they claim they are killing israeli civilians. a percent of palestinian attacks are retaliation, but a large percent are religiously motivated.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
What does the U.S. have to gain by supporting Israel? They have no oil.

[/ QUOTE ] you are right, but everyone else does nearby. Israel is a stable country, and the U.S. benefits from that region being stable. The more stable countries in the area, the better it will be. That is one of the reasons we went to Iraq.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does the U.S. have to gain by supporting Israel? They have no oil.

[/ QUOTE ] you are right, but everyone else does nearby. Israel is a stable country, and the U.S. benefits from that region being stable. The more stable countries in the area, the better it will be. That is one of the reasons we went to Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

Israel helps make the region unstable, imo.

We went to Iraq because Bush claimed that there were weapons of mass destruction. After that argument fell apart when none were found, Bush then reverted to the humanitarian and democracy benefit arguments.

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
what's worse:
Israeli army killing or attacking suspects? Remember this army is in uniform.

Palestinian civilians killing or attacking civilians?

I certainly realize Israelis kill innocent bystanders, which is horrible, but I can't help think that if Palestinians didn't attack Israeli civis, the Israeli army wouldn't attack any Palestinians.

sorry, I realize thats simplistic, but thats my view.

[/ QUOTE ]

buddy, this is probably the stupidest thing i've ever heard in my entire life.

do you really expect a country as poor as palestine to outfit an entire army to fight an extremely rich and U.S. funded opponent? are you kidding me? israel has one of the best air forces in the world. they have access to whatever they want militarily. palestinians throw rocks and use suicide bombers not to be the bad guys but because its the most effective thing they have and israel uses fighter jets off of U.S. carriers because its the most effective thing they've got.

stealthcow-

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Israel helps make the region unstable, imo.

[/ QUOTE ] I think that they are a stable country, but because they are there, that causes other neighoring countries with dictators to cause more problems, thus destabalizing the region. Israel has tried more than a few times to make amends with its neighbors.


[ QUOTE ]
We went to Iraq because Bush claimed that there were weapons of mass destruction. After that argument fell apart when none were found, Bush then reverted to the humanitarian and democracy benefit arguments.

[/ QUOTE ] yada yada yada. I don't think I made my point clearly. Going into Iraq and doing whatever the hell it was we were suppose to do would have the long term effect of stabalizing the country and region.

[Dead]

You should post more in the politics forum.

You make a lot of sense.

-Dead

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Israel helps make the region unstable, imo. I think that they are a stable country, but because they are there, that causes other neighoring countries with dictators to cause more problems, thus destabalizing the region. Israel has tried more than a few times to make amends with its neighbors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please list the countries in that area which have dictators for their leaders.


[ QUOTE ]
yada yada yada. I don't think I made my point clearly. Going into Iraq and doing whatever the hell it was we were suppose to do would have the long term effect of stabalizing the country and region.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one really knows the real justification for going there.

And it doesn't look like we are stabilizing it that much. We have been there for more than 2 years, and there have been 32 US deaths this month. And many more than that have been wounded.

There are definitely Al Quaeda in Iraq right now. And they weren't there before.

[chabibi]

[ QUOTE ]
do you really expect a country as poor as palestine to outfit an entire army to fight an extremely rich and U.S. funded opponent? are you kidding me? israel has one of the best air forces in the world. they have access to whatever they want militarily. palestinians throw rocks and use suicide bombers not to be the bad guys but because its the most effective thing they have and israel uses fighter jets off of U.S. carriers because its the most effective thing they've got.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay, the palestinians use suicide bombers because thats the most effective thing theyve got. so israel uses a security fence and tight security checkpoints, because thats the most effective thing theyve got to fight suicide bombers, if the palis dont want to have theyre kids born on the side of the street they should find a more effective way to combat israel

[chabibi]

saudi arabia, jordan, syria , egypt, iran.....

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
saudi arabia, jordan, syria , egypt, iran.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Monarchies are not necessarily dictatorships.

[chabibi]

from that list two are monarchies

[Felix_Nietsche]

"Are you saying that the lives are soldiers are worth less than civilian lives?"
************************************************** ***
No. In war, soldiers are the ONLY people you can intentionally target.
To do otherwise is to commit a war crime. Like what the Palestinians have been doing for the last 40 years....

"Because soldiers' lives are worth less, at least according to you."
**************************************************
Oh really? I challenge you to show me where I said this.
Or do you wish to concede now you just made that up?...Refer to my first response on war crimes genius...

[Dead]

A life is a life is a life. All loss of life is tragic.

And the Israelis have intentionally targeted Palestinian civilians.

[ThaSaltCracka]

it takes time man, it takes time. We need to be patient.

(and this coming from a guy who was against the war.)


[ QUOTE ]
There are definitely Al Quaeda in Iraq right now. And they weren't there before.

[/ QUOTE ] Yup, and we need to kill them. They are in the way of peace and progress, much like the terrorist groups in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
from that list two are monarchies

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and the rest are not dictatorships.

Saudi Arabia and Jordan are monarchies. Egypt is a republic, and Iran is an Islamic republic.

Syria is disputable.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
Monarchies are not necessarily dictatorships.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you care about reality or do you just write for the sake of filling space.

[Dead]

You were against the war?

I thought that you were one of the strongest supporters of it. Well, at least you always come up with justifications for it.

To me, fighting with the Al Qaeda in Iraq is like playing those games in video arcades where the objective is to bash the woodchucks that pop up. Except, in this case, they likely won't ever stop popping up, and there are no prizes.

We need to pull out.

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
if the palis dont want to have theyre kids born on the side of the street they should find a more effective way to combat israel

[/ QUOTE ]

o i get it.

its the palistinians fault for all of this!

so if the palestinians decided to have nice little peace protests about how the land is theirs everything would be good to go? didn't the native americans try the peaceful route to great success?

feel free to list any other "great" ways the palestinians can fight for what they feel is theirs.


stealthcow-

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
You were against the war?

I thought that you were one of the strongest supporters of it. Well, at least you always come up with justifications for it.

[/ QUOTE ] why do you think that?

Also, even though I was opposed to it, I can still see some benefits from it. Plus we are there, so lets try to find some positives about it, and lets not forget about our troops.

[ QUOTE ]

We need to pull out.

[/ QUOTE ] Not right now, but yeah we do. I think Bush wants to get us out ASAP, and I think he will try hard to get that.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"And the Israelis have intentionally targeted Palestinian civilians."
***********************************************
Can you back that up where Israelis have intentionally targeted civilians and *NOT* been put in jail?

The Palestinians celebrate and get praised when they intentionally kill civilians....

[Dead]

First let's discuss American civilians. Let's talk about Rachel Corrie. It was MURDER.

And how about Israel attacking the USS Liberty and the cover up of that? And they paid us back with our own fookin money.

Surviving crew members assert that the attack was premeditated and deliberate and that Israel knew the ship was an American ship.

The bastards attacked our soldiers. With no provocation.

Israel has exhibited a callous disregard for human life over the past 50 years.

Israel gives Jews around the world a bad name. You wouldn't believe how much [censored] Jews take because of Israel.

It's automatically assumed by some that we're all Zionists.

It's partly the media's fault.

[chabibi]

[ QUOTE ]
its the palistinians fault for all of this

[/ QUOTE ]
yes

[ QUOTE ]
so if the palestinians decided to have nice little peace protests about how the land is theirs everything would be good to go

[/ QUOTE ]

things would go alot better for them with this method, than the methods theyve used so far

[ QUOTE ]

feel free to list any other "great" ways the palestinians can fight for what they feel is theirs

[/ QUOTE ]
you already listed the best method.

if the palestinians are to weak to win a bloody war then they shouldnt try

if you pick a fight with a guy three times your size, dont be surprised when you get your ass kicked

[Dead]

If the guy is three times my size, and he is constantly bullying me, then I am going to attempt to fight back. I'll go down fighting, rather than letting him beat me into submission.

[chabibi]

Bull [censored] conspiracy theories
prove on thing you stated

[Dead]

Israeli forces attacked the Liberty because the surveillance ship's crew knew Israel was indeed going to attempt to capture Syria's Golan Heights, a strategic position that was coveted by Israel. This was something that they didn't want the world to know about in advance, U.S. in particular.

Retired Admiral Thomas Moorer made a 1997 statement on the attack: In the statement, he said this:


"Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages, that (it) was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition. I believe Moshe Dayan concluded he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information, the USS Liberty"

I will tell you why this has not been investigated further: because of the Israel lobby here in America.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
First let's discuss American civilians. Let's talk about Rachel Corrie. It was MURDER.


[/ QUOTE ]

In Felix's world, if the side he doesn't like kill civilians, they are bastards, war criminals, people without honor and so on. If the side he likes kill civilians, then, well, it was the civilian fault; "she was in a dangerous zone".

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First let's discuss American civilians. Let's talk about Rachel Corrie. It was MURDER.


[/ QUOTE ]

In Felix's world, if the side he doesn't like kill civilians, they are bastards, war criminals, people without honor and so on. If the side he likes kill civilians, then, well, it was the civilian fault; "she was in a dangerous zone".

[/ QUOTE ]

Such a cavalier attitude about human life, as I said above.

In Iraq, for example, we have to kill the Iraqis to save them. Some(read: lots) will have to die so that they can be free.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First let's discuss American civilians. Let's talk about Rachel Corrie. It was MURDER.


[/ QUOTE ]

In Felix's world, if the side he doesn't like kill civilians, they are bastards, war criminals, people without honor and so on. If the side he likes kill civilians, then, well, it was the civilian fault; "she was in a dangerous zone".

[/ QUOTE ]

Such a cavalier attitude about human life, as I said above.

In Iraq, for example, we have to kill the Iraqis to save them. Some(read: lots) will have to die so that they can be free.

[/ QUOTE ] a lot of Americans died during thr revolutionary and civil war. Thats what happens during war, people die.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First let's discuss American civilians. Let's talk about Rachel Corrie. It was MURDER.


[/ QUOTE ]

In Felix's world, if the side he doesn't like kill civilians, they are bastards, war criminals, people without honor and so on. If the side he likes kill civilians, then, well, it was the civilian fault; "she was in a dangerous zone".

[/ QUOTE ]

Such a cavalier attitude about human life, as I said above.

In Iraq, for example, we have to kill the Iraqis to save them. Some(read: lots) will have to die so that they can be free.

[/ QUOTE ] a lot of Americans died during thr revolutionary and civil war. Thats what happens during war, people die.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those wars had noble purposes. This one doesn't. This war was founded on lies and deceit.

[Felix_Nietsche]

Rachel Corrie:
She played 'chicken' with an Israeli bulldozer that was taking vengeance on a Palestinian family whose child killed Israeli civilans. Although the armored bulldozers have less visibility (due to the armoring), I'm not sure I believe the story that the driver did not see her. I *PERSONALLY* suspect (aka without evidence) the driver was playing a game of chicken with Rachel Corrie with the intention of making her back down. At worst I think it was manslaughter but not murder. If he had swerved to hit Rachel, THEN I would call it murder but dodging a swerving bulldozer is easy as long as your not intentionally trying to jump in its path. I do know Rachel had ZERO business to stand in front of the bulldozer. Israeli emotions were high after the murder bombing and playing chicken with a bulldozer was insanely stupid. But you and I will never know the truth because only the bull dozer driver knows for sure...

As for the USS Liberty, "friendly" happens all the time in war zones. I just do not believe it was an intentional attack on the USA...


"Israel has exhibited a callous disregard for human life over the past 50 years."
*********************************************
That is your opinion and I disagree.
By the way did you see the footage of the Palestinians dancing in the streets after 911? Were not these people showing a callous disregard for human life?
No Jew ever tried to chop my head with a knife...

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First let's discuss American civilians. Let's talk about Rachel Corrie. It was MURDER.


[/ QUOTE ]

In Felix's world, if the side he doesn't like kill civilians, they are bastards, war criminals, people without honor and so on. If the side he likes kill civilians, then, well, it was the civilian fault; "she was in a dangerous zone".

[/ QUOTE ]

Such a cavalier attitude about human life, as I said above.

In Iraq, for example, we have to kill the Iraqis to save them. Some(read: lots) will have to die so that they can be free.

[/ QUOTE ] a lot of Americans died during thr revolutionary and civil war. Thats what happens during war, people die.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those wars had noble purposes. This one doesn't. This war was founded on lies and deceit.

[/ QUOTE ]only history will tell. 2 years is definitely not enough time to impartially look at and decide.

[Dead]

I'm going to stop quoting because that makes the messages too long.

Is two years enough time to find the weapons of mass destruction? We were told by Bush that we were in imminent danger.

[Dead]

A simple news clip doesn't always provide us with enough information to determine what the people shown in it are reacting to, why they reacted the way that they did, or and whether or not the actions are representative of a large group or a small one.

That's the problem with relying on just images.

As for Rachel Corrie, she was doing a noble thing. Israel has no business demolishing the homes of suicide bombers. The families did not participate in it. Why punish them for acts that they had no part in?

Are you a believer in collective punishment? Israel is, unfortunately.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to stop quoting because that makes the messages too long.

Is two years enough time to find the weapons of mass destruction? We were told by Bush that we were in imminent danger.

[/ QUOTE ]two years is enough time for that, but well, they aren't there, so deal witht that. But 20 years from now, the invasion of Iraq may turn out to be a godsend, or a deathwish, only time will tell.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
two years is enough time for that, but well, they aren't there, so deal witht that. But 20 years from now, the invasion of Iraq may turn out to be a godsend, or a deathwish, only time will tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I and many other people believe Bush knew that they weren't there.

I honestly don't see the invasion of Iraq ever becoming a godsend, and I'm not saying this because Bush did it. If Clinton had done it, I would have been just as pissed. I was pissed when he went into Bosnia and Kosovo, so this is not a partisan issue to me.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
Is two years enough time to find the weapons of mass destruction? We were told by Bush that we were in imminent danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

You ever lost with pocket aces before? If you have, do you stop playing them?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is two years enough time to find the weapons of mass destruction? We were told by Bush that we were in imminent danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

You ever lost with pocket aces before? If you have, do you stop playing them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I've lost with pocket aces.

What are the pocket aces in this case? The claim that there were weapons of mass destruction? Nah, that would be 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif. I'd play it in the big blind.

And trying to analogize the deaths of 1500 soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis to a poker game is awful.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I and many other people believe Bush knew that they weren't there.

[/ QUOTE ] and somehow he was re-elected(I didn't vote for him).

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't see the invasion of Iraq ever becoming a godsend, and I'm not saying this because Bush did it. If Clinton had done it, I would have been just as pissed. I was pissed when he went into Bosnia and Kosovo, so this is not a partisan issue to me.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats because you live in the present. Stabalizing Kosovo and the Balkans will have an enormous impact on that region for decades. Stabalizing Iraq and having another Democracy in the area will greatly impact that region as well.

You need to see the bigger picture man.

[Dead]

Not one thing has happened so far to give me even the slightest doubt that I was right to oppose the killing of 100,000 Iraqis.

Notice that I am using the word kill instead of murder. I don't believe that most of the innocent Iraqis who are now dead were murdered. But they are dead nonetheless. And that is a tremendous tragedy.

I can't even imagine what it must be like for an Iraqi mother to lose both of her sons and her husband.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
And trying to analogize the deaths of 1500 soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis to a poker game is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

stop being so emotionally driven

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]

I can't even imagine what it must be like for an Iraqi mother to lose both of her sons and her husband.

[/ QUOTE ]at Saddams hands, right?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize its a cycle, I just lean more torward Israel side simply because I think the Palestinians have far more to gain than Israel via the route of peace, and I simply just can't understand why they don't realize that. They have all these factions fighting against Israel (some heavily funded by foreign douche bag countries), all of which are so bent on war. Sometimes I shake my head and say, figure it out dummies. Stop killing people, bring some peace, then come to the table and see what happens.

bah, I digress, why am I even here talking about this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the Palestinians probably have more to gain, but I think Israel is in a much better position to end the cycle. They have almost all of the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always thought the following summed things up nicely:

"If the Palestinians stopped fighting, there would be no war. If the Israelis stopped fighting, there would be no Israel."

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I can't even imagine what it must be like for an Iraqi mother to lose both of her sons and her husband.

[/ QUOTE ]at Saddams hands, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It must have been pretty hard for Saddam to do it while in U.S. custody.

It happened last year, from what I remember(definitely post Saddam capture at least). Just one case out of many.

[ThaSaltCracka]

oh, so Saddam never killed innocent people?

[Felix_Nietsche]

That is rather short-sighted.
Those tactics work once or twice then it never works again. It falls under the category, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

No wonder the make the Arab women have their children outside check points. When you hear the other side of the story it gives you the full picture...

[Gamblor]

"Palestinian women have borne the brunt of the escalation of the conflict and decades of Israeli occupation, while in Palestinian society they are subjected to a system of laws and norms that treats them as unequal members of society"

You know who has really borne the brunt of the conflict?

the dead people.

the legitimacy and necessity of the checkpoints is unquestionable.

if you have an issue, the poor conduct of the soldiers is not a policy problem, it is an army discipline problem.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
"If the Palestinians stopped fighting, there would be no war. If the Israelis stopped fighting, there would be no Israel."

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice. If anyone here reads Tom Clancy (I'm a die hard fan!!), you might have read a book where this exact thing happens. The Palestinians start protesting peacefully, and the Israelis open fire with rubber bullets, which makes them look pretty bad (don't exactly remember the name book, perhaps someone else can bail me out. great book though!).
Tom Clancy is a wise man...

[Gamblor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ariel Sharon is the main obstacle to peace. I

[/ QUOTE ] I would have to say people blowing themselves up in a packed bus is the biggest obstacle to peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does the method of killing matter? How is blowing yourself up in a packed bus any different from firing rockets from a helicopter and killing people? This makes no sense. Both sides kill. The Israelis kill more people. If the Palestinians had missles, jets, helicopters, and tanks like the Israelis do, they wouldn't have to use suicide bombers.

[/ QUOTE ]

you imply that soldiers and 'copters are randomly firing for the express purpose of killing as many people as possible, which is in direct contravention of IDF codes of ethics.

care to show me the hamas code of ethics? their purity of arms values?

[Gamblor]

that uppity bitch was a troublemaker. while its sad she died, its funny that she was photographed days earlier burning american and israeli flags and shouting for israeli blood.

what a peace lover.

as if some guy just decided to bulldoze her cause she was ugly.

[Gamblor]

shooting innocent kids = accidents (even if avoidable).

shooting 4 children and mother in car = on purpose.

shooting 2 children in bed on kibbutz and mother reading them bedtime story = on purpose.

[Gamblor]

disputed != not theirs.

the fence is built on whatever land causes the greatest deterrence to terrorism and the least (but still significant) effect on the lives of the area's residents

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
The Palestinians are just responding to the daily silent violence of the Israelis.

[/ QUOTE ]
And it couldn't be the other way around? It's a blood feud, essentially. Both are killing to avenge the deaths of past killings. I suppose a $20,000 check from Unky Saddam had absolutely nothing to do with any bombings either...

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the Palestinian resistance to the occupation could be considered a right, granted by the Geneva Conventions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then don't they have to abide by that part of the Convention that bans targeting of civilians?
Do you honestly think they will stop doing that?

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
the palestinians constantly use red cresent ambulances and people desguised as sick or pregnant to sneak terrorists in to the country

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this something you heard on Limbaugh or are you mentally ill?

[BCPVP]

http://www.cnsnews.com/ForeignBureaus/archive/200403/FOR20040318b.html

"Terrorists used a 12-year-old boy to carry a bomb across an Israeli checkpoint, and then evidently tried to detonate the device by remote control when he was stopped and searched.

The Israeli military says the incident comes against a background of continuing exploitation of Palestinian children, more than 70 of whom have been sent on suicide bombing missions since the current uprising began in late 2000.

Of that number, 29 successfully carried out their missions, blowing up themselves along with their Israeli targets.

Israeli newspapers carried pictures of 12-year-old Abdullah Quran alongside headlines such as "The height of cruelty" and with editorials about the use of children as "cannon fodder."

The Jerusalem Post said terrorists appeared to be "trying to reach new depths of war crimes, matched only by previous uses of ambulances and pregnant women to carry out terrorist attacks."


Woo, #100!

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
It has never been Israeli policy to intentionally target civlians.

[/ QUOTE ]
In truth, it is Israeli policy to intentionally target civilians in a number of cases. If the Israeli troops come under fire, or think they they have, they're instructed to fire back at any target of opportunity that could conceivably be the source of the fire. Entire families gulty of doing nothing more than living in the territories have been wiped out under this procedure. If civilians disobey a curfew, they can be shot on sight. If civilians walk too close to a setttlement restricted area, they can be shot on sight. And of course, there's the usual shelling and shooting of civilian areas, which despite an appearance of randomness would qualify in most countries as mass murder.

If I'm right, would you agree that anyone or any country who aided and abetted this conduct would be aiding and abetting "war crimes?"

[Felix_Nietsche]

....Children after a suicide bombing.

Quote:
They claim that going into a Palestinian village and shooting children is an appropriate punishment after a suicide bombing.
I don't think it is.

Show me evidence where:
1. This happen.
2. The Israeli's did not put this person(s) in jail.

It is assinine assertions like these which makes me question people's credibility. Show me evidence.....

[BCPVP]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it never happens, but to hold the entire IDF as well as Israel's leadership accountable for the actions of a few (assuming this isn't standing policy) is asinine. It'd be like saying that Bush and the government are all thugs because there were some cops in Milwaukee that beat up a black gay guy. If there were cases where a soldier in the IDF did purposefully target innocent Palestinians for the sake of revenge, they should be put on trial. But the mere fact that it may have happened does not prove that it is the standing policy of the IDF.

[Chris Alger]

1. This account is dubious. In hundreds of suicide bombings, there hasn't been a single instance using "unwitting" martyrs being blown up by remote control. According to the IDF, they just happened to catch the only one? Who was also the youngest suicide bomber on record? Who just happened to be mentally retarded? And all the evidence comes from the IDF?

2. I'm not sure about pregnant women, but try finding an actual example of using an ambulance "to carry out terrorist attacks." They don't exist, although Israel has been caught, on film, trying to fabricate these cases. Check out the Palestinian Red Crescent website.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
1. This account is dubious. In hundreds of suicide bombings, there hasn't been a single instance using "unwitting" martyrs being blown up by remote control. According to the IDF, they just happened to catch the only one? Who was also the youngest suicide bomber on record? Who just happened to be mentally retarded? And all the evidence comes from the IDF?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's called changing tactics. So because there's been only one reported case of this happening (that I could find in a short period), it is unlikely that it occured?
And who else do you expect this info to come from? The Swedish Olympic hockey team?

[ QUOTE ]
try finding an actual example of using an ambulance "to carry out terrorist attacks."

[/ QUOTE ]

"One of the most prominent incidents is the suicide bombing attack on Jaffa Street in Jerusalem on January 27, 2002, in which one Israeli civilian was killed and over 100 were injured. The suicide bombing was carried out by Wafa Idris, a resident of the Amari refugee camp near Ramallah. Idris served as a medical secretary for the Palestinian Red Crescent. Following investigation by security forces, it appears that the suicide bomber was dispatched to carry out the attack by Muhamad Hababa, a resident of the village of Beit Iksa near Ramallah, a Tanzim operative and an ambulance driver of the Palestinian Red Crescent. Also involved in the terror attack was Munzar Nur, a resident of Anabta, near Tulkarm, who worked for the Palestinian Red Crescent as well.

Incidents in which ambulances were used for terrorist activities:

# On March 27, 2002 IDF forces arrested Islam Jibril, a Tanzim operative at a checkpoint near Ramallah. Jibril, born 1971, a resident of the Balata refugee camp in Nablus, worked as an ambulance driver in the Palestinian Red Crescent. Jibril was arrested while driving a Red Crescent ambulance containing an explosive belt and explosive devices. During his investigation Jiblril confessed that the bombs were handed to him in Nablus by Mahmud Titi, a senior Tanzim operative in the Samaria area who was killed by security forces. The explosive belt was hidden underneath a stretch carrying a sick Palestinian boy aside his family members.

# Investigation has revealed that during March 2002 several Palestinian terrorists in Ramallah were using ambulances in order to move from one spot to another. The terrorists were wearing medical uniforms and some of them used city hospitals as a hiding place.

# In October 2001 Israeli security forces arrested Nidal Nazal, resident of Qalkilya, a Hamas terrorist and the brother of Nasser Nazal - a senior Hamas terrorist in the city. Nidal worked as an ambulance driver for the Palestinian Red Crescent. In his investigation Nidal confessed to the transfer of weaponry for terrorists and using his freedom of passage granted to him due to the fact that he was an ambulance driver. Furthermore, Nidal used this privilege in order to act as a messenger of Hamas HQ in different Palestinian cities.

# In a document seized during Operation Defensive Shield, it was noted that weapons were concealed in the floor of an ambulance. In an another document it is noted that the Palestinian general intelligence service used an ambulance to transfer a suspect from Husan to Bethlehem."
Source (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/12/The+Palestinian+use+of+ambulances+and+medical+mate .htm)

I understand that you will probably call this site biased, but I don't know where else you're going to get first hand accounts that don't contain some kind of bias. So just deal with it.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"In truth, it is Israeli policy to intentionally target civilians in a number of cases."
*************************************************
Mmmmm...OK
Perhaps you will actually back this up with evidence...


"If the Israeli troops come under fire, or think they they have, they're instructed to fire back at any target of opportunity that could conceivably be the source of the fire."
************************************************** **
Same with the US Army. It is called "rules of engagement". This is legal. It is called self-defence.


"Entire families gulty of doing nothing more than living in the territories have been wiped out under this procedure."
************************************************** ****
OK..but soldiers are allowed to return fire. When the militants engage Israeli forces THEN there will be lots of bullets flying around. Since bullets don't stop when the hit most walls, then it is to be expected civilians will get hurt. Perhaps if militants did not choose Palestinian neighborhoods to have gun battles then there would be less civilian deaths. AND I'm STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS THAT THE ISRAELI POLICY IS TO INTENTIONALLY TARGET CIVILIANS...


"If civilians disobey a curfew, they can be shot on sight. If civilians walk too close to a setttlement restricted area, they can be shot on sight."
************************************************** *****
After a hurricane USA state governors (usually Republicans /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) have called out the National Guard, implemented curfews, and ordered looters to be shot. I consider suicide bombers to be a TINY BIT more serious than looting. So I based on the history, I see no problem here... Perhaps obeying the curphew would be the smart thing to do. And Palestinian militants that get shot violating the curphew do not count as 'civilians'.


"And of course, there's the usual shelling and shooting of civilian areas, which despite an appearance of randomness would qualify in most countries as mass murder."
************************************************** ******
<Sigh> The Israeli military is allowed to returns fire. And your claim of "mass murder" is silly. If the Israelis wanted to mass murder the Arabs, there wouldn't be in Arabs left in Israeli....

You *WERE* going to actually back up your claim that Israel had a policy of intentionally killing civilians weren't you?...RIGHT?


"If I'm right, would you agree that anyone or any country who aided and abetted this conduct would be aiding and abetting "war crimes?":
************************************************** *
No...all of the things you listed are all legal.
But after your typical anti-Israeli posts I get this unusual desire to throw rocks at Palestinians. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Felix_Nietsche]

Where did you get this info?
Air America....lol

Great Post!
The question is how will Chris Alger try to deny these sources. Or will he actually concede NOW that the Palestinians will use any tactic to carry out their violent plans.... Including Red Crecent vehicles and pregnant women...

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is how will Chris Alger try to deny these sources.

[/ QUOTE ]
My guess would be the smearing of the IDF as biased and therefore the information wrong. But like I asked him, where is he going to find any such first hand accounts that aren't going to be biased, one way or another?

[chabibi]

it was in sum of all fears, the book was okay the movie was awful

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
As a Jewish person, I am disgusted by the atrocities of the Israeli government.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hear Bobby Fisher is taking applications for undersecretary of the Self Hating Jew organization he is setting up in Iceland.

Perhaps you should fax your CV...

P.S.

I think its you that needs to learn something about the holocaust.

[partygirluk]

I don't see how you can call Israel an apartheid state and compare events in the Palestinian territories to those of the Holocaust.

Go into a hospital in Jerusalem and you will find Jews and Arabs on the same ward receiving treatment free of charge. Compare this to Palestine where Jews are regularly demonized on T.V. and racist propaganda is the norm....... I don't know how you can possibly claim that Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians because they go out of their way not to target them. You show a fundamental lack of understanding of the situation. Israel is not perfect (the settlements are an example of racist imperialism), but what annoys me with some leftists is this:

they spend so much time criticisng Israel, and far far less (or 0 time) mentioning the human rights abuses of Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Russia etc.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Go into a hospital in Jerusalem and you will find Jews and Arabs on the same ward receiving treatment free of charge

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only that you will find SUICIDE BOMBERS THAT SURVIVED THEIR ATTACKS BEING TREATED!!!!

Personally I think they should be shot and buried in shallow graves...

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go into a hospital in Jerusalem and you will find Jews and Arabs on the same ward receiving treatment free of charge

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only that you will find SUICIDE BOMBERS THAT SURVIVED THEIR ATTACKS BEING TREATED!!!!

Personally I think they should be shot and buried in shallow graves...

[/ QUOTE ]

That is very commendable, but I suspect a large part of it is because failed bombers are excellent material for an interrogation.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Good for them. The rest of America doesn't care, she was in a dangerous area, [censored] happens.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your brother is currently serving as a soldier in a dangerous area?

I'm sure he would be happy to learn from you that nobody gives a damn about what happens to an American guy in Iraq except maybe the guy's parents --good for them-- the rest of America doesn't care.

Here's hoping your brother doesn't meet the shitstorm that beckons.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
"If the Palestinians stopped fighting, there would be no war. If the Israelis stopped fighting, there would be no Israel."

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that backwards - and a little incomplete. If the Israelis stopped fighting, there would be no more war. If the Palestinians had stopped fighting, there would be no "Palestinian problem".



[ QUOTE ]
anyone here reads Tom Clancy (I'm a die hard fan!!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Figures.


[ QUOTE ]
You might have read a book where this exact thing happens. The Palestinians start protesting peacefully, and the Israelis open fire with rubber bullets, which makes them look pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

What book? What fiction? This has really happened!


The Palestinians started protesting peacefully (their protest was collectively called intifadah, as you may recall); at most, throwing stones and slinging arrows - literally.

The Israelis routinely opened fire, not with rubber bullets, but with real bullets. Which did indeed make them look pretty bad -- but, as usual, looking bad doesn't mean crap to Israel. As long as Uncle Sam smiles with benign amusement on Israeli actions, Israel could not care less "how bad it looks".

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
It's called changing tactics. So because there's been only one reported case of this happening (that I could find in a short period), it is unlikely that it occured?


[/ QUOTE ]
We know the "changing tactics" theory won't wash because the tactics did not, in fact, change. The report is old and the "tactics" haven't materialized: there still is no record of any unwilling martyr detonated by remote control. And the report is "unlikely" because the tactic of murdering children would have backfired, creating more collaberationists terririfed that their own children would be murdered.

[ QUOTE ]
understand that you will probably call this site biased, but I don't know where else you're going to get first hand accounts that don't contain some kind of bias. So just deal with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not a question of bias but (1) failing support the point and (2) being complete fabrication. The Wafa Idris story is true, but she was just a medical secretary before turning terrorist and never used an ambulance for any terror attack. Islam Jabril might be true also, as far as I can tell, but note that after years of IDF allegations that Palestinians routinely used ambulances to foment terror, this was the first and last time that any Red Crescent ambulance had been seen carrying weapons.

The vague report on the Ramallah "investigation" is an old hoax (I had a prior post about it -- turns out the IDF was using ambulances to ferry its soldiers). A close reading of the Nidal Nazal case indicates that he also never used an ambulance for a terrorist attack: "Nidal confessed to the transfer of weaponry for terrorists and using his freedom of passage granted to him due to the fact that he was an ambulance driver." Note the disjunctive: this is not a statement that he ever used an ambulance to tranfer weapons or aid terror (and note that the transfer of "weapons" connotes Palestinian militia defending against invaders, not suicide bombers on Jerusalem buses). The last case, invoking the alway suspect passive voice, claims "it was noted that weapons were concealed in the floor of an ambulance," but it doesn't say whose weapons or what they were for. The last case has nothing to do with terrorism: "it is noted that the Palestinian general intelligence service used an ambulance to transfer a suspect from Husan to Bethlehem."

Not exactly "firsthand accounts" that prove the "constant" use of ambulances for terror, are they? If you want real evidence, visit the dozens of phtographs and statistics of hundreds of IDF cases directly targeting hospitals, clinics, ambulances and emergency medical personnel, or read the AI or HRW eyewitness accounts of this practice.

The war crime of attacking civilian medical personnel is Israeli policy. It counters by issuing weak propaganda that convinces the weak-minded that Palestinians "constantly" use the ambulances for terror. It's a lie.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a Jewish person, I am disgusted by the atrocities of the Israeli government.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hear Bobby Fisher is taking applications for undersecretary of the Self Hating Jew organization he is setting up in Iceland.

Perhaps you should fax your CV...

P.S.

I think its you that needs to learn something about the holocaust.

[/ QUOTE ]

What garbage.

I'm not from Israel. There are more Jews in America than in Israel. What is the point of the Israeli state?

[Dead]

1) I'm not a leftist.

2) It has been proven that Israel does in fact target Palestinian civilians.

3) I have criticized the human rights abuses in Russia, and not mentioning the others does not mean that I am not aware of them or don't care about them.

[Gamblor]

The war crime of attacking civilian medical personnel is Israeli policy.

Please point to IDF doctrine that allows this.

Failing that, please link to Likud or Israeli government information that describes this.

You liar.

[Chris Alger]

Do you own homework. Read the reports by AI, HRW or Bet T'selem. Over 700 children have been killed by Israeli forces since the September 2000. None or almost none of these cases resulted in soldiers going to jail.

[Gamblor]

Do you own homework. Read the reports by AI, HRW or Bet T'selem. Over 700 children have been killed by Israeli forces since the September 2000. None or almost none of these cases resulted in soldiers going to jail.

Results-oriented thinking.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
Please point to IDF doctrine that allows this. Failing that, please link to Likud or Israeli government information that describes this. You liar.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if Hamas doesn't have written policy of attacking children than anyone who claims as much is a "liar?" A typical Gamblor argument.

Either: (1) the persistent, unpunished attacks on medical personnel and facilities by your terrorist buddies are policy or (2) these cases (http://www.palestinercs.org/EMS_Under_Fire.htm) are just a lot of bad luck. Dumb guys will come to the predictable conclusion.

As for your response, don't bother because here it is already: "Many of those that claim to be eyewitnesses to Israeli human rights violations are Arabs. It is incontrobertible that Arabs are genetically predisposed to lie. Therefore, Israel never commits any human rights violations."

After all, we've seen it from you many times before.

[Girchuck]

Well, Palestinian missiles have more sophisticated guidance systems. But they use them to kill people who have no influence. Regular killings of random people will hardly make the Israelis vote for peace.

[Gamblor]

So if Hamas doesn't have written policy of attacking children than anyone who claims as much is a "liar?" A typical Gamblor argument.

HAMAS Covenant (http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).


A definite command: kill any Jews you see.

One other highlight:

Article 13: Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Either: (1) the persistent, unpunished attacks on medical personnel and facilities by your terrorist buddies are policy or (2) these cases are just a lot of bad luck. Dumb guys will come to the predictable conclusion.

It is Israeli IDF doctrine to transfer the scene of the battle to enemy ground. That is true. But in this case, the enemy is using civilian facilities and ground as cover. I don't think there is much doubt here as to the proper conclusion.

It is incontrobertible that Arabs are genetically predisposed to lie.

You're sick.

[Girchuck]

It sure worked in South Africa. And India. It didn't work in 18th century, but it did work in the 20th. Non-violence is the way of the future. Conflicts need to be settled with courts, not bombs. Bombs just kill, and if you cannot kill all of your enemies, you need to learn to deal with them peacefully.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
More "fair" treatment from the Israelis...


Palestinian women suffer violence (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6BBC34B-B1FE-4A62-9252-9C3A307D3B7E.htm)

Palestinian women are suffering intimidation and violence at the hands of Israeli security forces and within their own community, Amnesty International said in a report.

Some have been forced to give birth at Israeli checkpoints because they are not allowed through to hospitals, while others are subject to "honour killings" by relatives.

The human rights group said women in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip were increasingly the victims of both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"Palestinian women have borne the brunt of the escalation of the conflict and decades of Israeli occupation, while in Palestinian society they are subjected to a system of laws and norms that treats them as unequal members of society," it said...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this is Israel's fault. Sorry, this seems like a problem with the Palestinians. Also, to post an article for Al Jazeera is REALLY funny.

[jaxmike]

They did you [censored] fool. Hence the "no [censored] around" policy they have adopted.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am putting most of the blame on the Israelis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly its their fault that people strap bombs onto their bodies and detonate them in crowded places filled with normal people.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said above, Ariel Sharon is the main obstacle to peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Arafat was, now I think its more the leftovers from his terrorist regime.

[ QUOTE ]
I question why the Israeli state was even created.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad that you can't accuse me of being anti-semitic now. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are an anti-semite, and yes, I know you are Jewish.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are an anti-semite, and yes, I know you are Jewish.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've just made a serious allegation.

Now the onus is on you to prove it.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are an anti-semite, and yes, I know you are Jewish.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've just made a serious allegation.

Now the onus is on you to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never made any allegation you unintelligent jerk, I stated my opinion. It's based on the things you post, they appear to me to be anti-semitic.

EDIT: made things nicer for Dead so I don't hurt his feelings..

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are an anti-semite, and yes, I know you are Jewish.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've just made a serious allegation.

Now the onus is on you to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never made any allegation you unintelligent ass, I stated my opinion. It's based on the things you post, they appear to me to be anti-semitic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me one post I've made that could be construed as anti-semitic.

Put up or shut up.

And cut out the constant personal attacks. People here are getting tired of it.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are an anti-semite, and yes, I know you are Jewish.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've just made a serious allegation.

Now the onus is on you to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never made any allegation you unintelligent ass, I stated my opinion. It's based on the things you post, they appear to me to be anti-semitic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me one post I've made that could be construed as anti-semitic.

Put up or shut up.

And cut out the constant personal attacks. People here are getting tired of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just about every post you have made about Israel is my evidence. You don't come out and say that you hate Jews, but your views are what leads me to that conclusion. Stop posting ignorance, and stop attacking me, and I may stop personally attacking you. Though why its a problem is beyond me, its a freaking internet forum man, chill. I'm not trolling, I usually post my opinion, and defend against what I find to be impressive ignorance.

[Dead]

I don't have problems with other people on here who disagree with me. But you are the only one that constantly launches personal attacks on people who disagree with you.

So because I don't like Israeli policy I must be an anti-semite? I guess that because I don't like Bush's policies that I must be anti-American. I guess this means that 48% of America hates this country. Give me a break.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have problems with other people on here who disagree with me. But you are the only one that constantly launches personal attacks on people who disagree with you.

So because I don't like Israeli policy I must be an anti-semite? I guess that because I don't like Bush's policies that I must be anti-American. I guess this means that 48% of America hates this country. Give me a break.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just don't get it, but, you are a Liberal, and that makes a lot of sense.

If you can't even SEE why I can get the impression you are an anti-semite, that's a problem. If you can't even SEE why I think you are anti-American, that is a problem.

READ the things you write and imagine someone who is totally unbiased reading them. What impression would they get? The impression you give off to me is that you are a pompous anti-American anti-Semite who is still going through his "I know everything" years.

[Gamblor]

So because I don't like Israeli policy I must be an anti-semite?

I find most people's views of Israeli policy are directly influenced by the newspapers they read and the version of events they accept as fact.

It's a chicken and egg thing; equally as often, i find the version of events they accept as fact is directly influenced by their opinion of Israeli policy.

I should also point out, that it is Israeli and IDF policy to minimize civilian casualties, both Muslim and Jewish/Jewish and Arab.

Remember, you accept as truth the news you read and you risk jumping to false conclusions.

So, you either are incredibly ignorant about Israeli policies and therefore are generally reading left-oriented newspapers, or you are indeed an anti-semite and choose to accept pro-Pali sources as accurate because you simply don't believe Israel, as a Jewish state, has the right to exist.

Does Ireland have the right to exist as an Irish state?

People talk about Israel like its a war-torn wasteland with murderous thugs walking the streets. 99$ of it is normal cities and people. As far as it is possible to be both normal and Israeli /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dead]

Please explain how the murder of Rachel Corrie was part of an effort to minimize civilian casualties.

Maybe you can also explain why Israeli forces fired torpedoes at the USS Liberty, killing more than 30 serviceman and wounding over a hundred.

Are you aware that I am Jewish? I was born Jewish. I have two Jewish parents. I was bar mitzvahed. I had a bris.

I will ask you to do the same thing that I have asked of JaxMike. Show me an anti-semitic post that I have made.

[Gamblor]

Please explain how the murder of Rachel Corrie was part of an effort to minimize civilian casualties.

Rachel Corrie died, she was not murdered. Such language only serves to betray that you have already jumped to all the conclusions you can.

In any event, she put herself in a position of danger and died there. That's like you lying down in front of a car then saying the driver murdered you.

[i]Maybe you can also explain why Israeli forces fired torpedoes at the USS Liberty, killing more than 30 serviceman and wounding over a hundred. [/7i]

Major joint American-Israeli investigations uncovered that the Liberty attack was an accident.

The ships survivors, and anyone who will listen to them, remain bitter and convinced the attack was intentional, despite contradictory evidence (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html).

[Dead]

From the Jewish Virtual Library, no less. I'm impressed.

Let's look at some other sources:

http://www.ussliberty.com/

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby



I will take their word over yours, Gamblor.

I dedicate this post to the "memory of thirty-four fine young men who gave their lives on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel".

Rest in peace, gentlemen.

[Gamblor]

Wow, the survivors of the attack are bitter and are still throwing around accusations.

I'm shocked.

You'll be happy to know that the audio tapes of the radio transmissions between the pilots and their commanders were recently made public in Israel. Check them out if you understand hebrew.

[Dead]

I took the Hebrew III regents back in 7th grade, and got a 94 on it. I used to be perfectly fluent in it.

Unfortunately, the language is not used much here, so my conversational Hebrew is quite rusty.

I remember at my bar mitzvah I did the Shaharit and the Ma'ariv. I also read all of the Torah portions and the Maftir. Also did the Haftorah. Alas, that was 7 years ago.

I do intend to master the language again someday.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
If the Israelis stopped fighting, there would be no more war.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose if pushing Israel into the sea constitutes less war, then you're right.

[ QUOTE ]
What book? What fiction? This has really happened! The Palestinians started protesting peacefully (their protest was collectively called intifadah, as you may recall); at most, throwing stones and slinging arrows - literally.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sum of All Fears. And by peacefully protesting, I believe they just sat on the ground and allowed themselves to be attacked. They didn't fight back. Obviously throwing rocks and arrows is not protesting peacefully.

[ QUOTE ]
The Israelis routinely opened fire, not with rubber bullets, but with real bullets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Often in response to a terrorist attack. Which was in response to another such incident. And round and round we go. Stop trying to place all the blame on one side.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
A definite command: kill any Jews you see.


[/ QUOTE ]
Nice faking of the Hamas covenant, which actually says "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other." Rather than "commanding" genocide, Hamas refrained for years after it's founding before it engaged in any terrorism at all, and then repeatedly offered to refrain from attacking civilians if Israel would do the same, the same deal Israel gave Hizbollah. But of course Israel demands the right to butcher children in their beds, and so the violence continues, the IDF having killed more than 100 civilians since Arafat's death as Israel continues to steal other people's land at gunpoint.

[ QUOTE ]
It is Israeli IDF doctrine to transfer the scene of the battle to enemy ground.

[/ QUOTE ]
The "enemy ground" being the homes of millions of Palestinians. I agree: Israel is waging terrorism against an enemy civilian population. When the enemies shoot back at the invaders, people like you call it terrorism.

[Gamblor]

Nice faking of the Hamas covenant, which actually says "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

Of course; only when everyone accepts Islam as the superior religion and Muslims as the superior beings, can the Jews and Christians live in peace; until then, we fight to the death.

Too bad those pesky Jews won't all accept Muslims as the superior beings.

In other words: Arabs demand Jews follow Muslim law.

Israel doesn't demand that Arabs follow Jewish law.

[Felix_Nietsche]

No...you made the assertion.
So support your assertion with evidence or just concede you don't know what your talking about. And please don't cite some al-queda.com source....

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
We know the "changing tactics" theory won't wash because the tactics did not, in fact, change.

[/ QUOTE ]
1) A change does not mean it must be permanent.
2) It didn't work this time and many Pali kids who don't want to die probably know about this story.

[ QUOTE ]
And the report is "unlikely" because the tactic of murdering children would have backfired, creating more collaberationists terririfed that their own children would be murdered.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're kidding right?
Eight Year Olds Armed with AK-47s- These are the Latest Palestinian militants (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml;sessionid=XV5CTKS0MEZU1QFIQ MGCM5OAVCBQUJVC?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wmid118.xml&site=5)
Gaza kids undergoing military training at summer camps (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1089695512734)
Pictures of Children Training to be Terrorists (http://www.jewishgrassroots.com/images/Shocking%20images%20of%20Palestinian%20toddlers_fi les/Shocking%20images%20of%20Palestinian%20toddlers.ht m)

[ QUOTE ]
but note that after years of IDF allegations that Palestinians routinely used ambulances to foment terror, this was the first and last time that any Red Crescent ambulance had been seen carrying weapons.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they were spotted all the time, don't you think they'd be stopped and this tactic would stop being effective?

[ QUOTE ]
A close reading of the Nidal Nazal case indicates that he also never used an ambulance for a terrorist attack: "Nidal confessed to the transfer of weaponry for terrorists and using his freedom of passage granted to him due to the fact that he was an ambulance driver." Note the disjunctive: this is not a statement that he ever used an ambulance to tranfer weapons or aid terror (and note that the transfer of "weapons" connotes Palestinian militia defending against invaders, not suicide bombers on Jerusalem buses). The last case, invoking the alway suspect passive voice, claims "it was noted that weapons were concealed in the floor of an ambulance," but it doesn't say whose weapons or what they were for.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're just being ridiculous! So because they didn't explicitly use the ambulance to blow something up, that means what they did was ok? Aiding terrorists by transporting weapons to them by using ambulances is illegal, I believe. And that's why Palestinian women are now giving birth at Israeli checkpoints. Because the Palestinians have misused ambulances. And while this may seem cold, people have been giving birth in places other than hospitals since there've been people to give birth. Hardly the same thing as the honor killings committed by Palestinians against Palestinians claimed in the original article of this thread.

[Chris Alger]

1. It's clear from lack of support that you're just making up the claim that a single case represents a "change of tactics."

2. Your articles on "terrorist" camps instead refer to "guerilla warfare," hardly surprising for a society under foreign military occupation and dictatorship. It's another example of calling Palestinians "terrorists" whenever they fight back against the invaders, while asserting that the invaders are merely "retalliating." I'll grant you that there are many Palestinian children who glorify martyrdom, including terrorism (not the same thing), by mimicking their heros. That doesn't make them terrorists any more than Israeli kids dressing up as IDF soldiers (whom they will all eventually become) makes them terrorists.

3. "If they were spotted all the time, don't you think they'd be stopped and this tactic would stop being effective?" What? We know that ambulances are routinely -- "the original post said "constantly" -- used for terrorism despite the lack of proof because if there were proof the ambulances couldn't be used for terrorism? That's a nonsequitur.

4. "So because they didn't explicitly use the ambulance to blow something up, that means what they did was ok? Aiding terrorists by transporting weapons to them by using ambulances is illegal, I believe."

The original post referred to "terrorism" -- implying suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians. Your proof refers to isolated cases of running guns within one's own country which is under foreign attack. That's a big difference. Just because Israel likes to label everyone that shoots back a "terrorist" doesn't make it so.

5. "And that's why Palestinian women are now giving birth at Israeli checkpoints. Because the Palestinians have misused ambulances."

Look at your dates. Israel was interferring with medical services and personnel and shooting and blowing up ambulances years before they could conjure up any evidence that of any ambulance ever carried weapons of any sort. The smidgen of proof it eventually did offer is razor thin and includes not single case of a terror attack that relied on ambulances.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It's clear from lack of support that you're just making up the claim that a single case represents a "change of tactics."

[/ QUOTE ]
You're making a mountain out of this molehill. Just because you change, doesn't mean you can't change back. They may have been trying something new. It didn't work, so they stopped trying.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Your articles on "terrorist" camps instead refer to "guerilla warfare," hardly surprising for a society under foreign military occupation and dictatorship.

[/ QUOTE ]
And what part of "guerilla warefare" includes how to capture Jewish settlers. Guerilla warefare implies it is being used against a military force. That's not the case in many of those articles.

[ QUOTE ]
It's another example of calling Palestinians "terrorists" whenever they fight back against the invaders, while asserting that the invaders are merely "retalliating."

[/ QUOTE ]
Now by invaders do you mean settlers and regular civilians or do you mean the IDF? How are civilians "retalliating" in such a way that it is necessary for Palestinian terrorists to attack and kill them?

[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make them terrorists any more than Israeli kids dressing up as IDF soldiers (whom they will all eventually become) makes them terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Those kids were learning more than just how to dress up like a terrorist and you know it. YOU said that kids weren't being used for terrorism because the Palestinians would be afraid of their kids dying. Obviously that's not the case.

[ QUOTE ]
What? We know that ambulances are routinely -- "the original post said "constantly" -- used for terrorism despite the lack of proof because if there were proof the ambulances couldn't be used for terrorism? That's a nonsequitur.

[/ QUOTE ]
There have been reports of Red Crescent ambulances being used. Because of that, their access to Israeli parts are restricted/banned. Because of that, some Palestinian women have been giving birth at checkpoints. Are the ambulances constantly used? I don't know. Probably not constantly, but obviously enough to have broken the trust between the Red Crescent and the Israelis.

[ QUOTE ]
The original post referred to "terrorism" -- implying suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or supplying/transporting terrorists.

[ QUOTE ]
Just because Israel likes to label everyone that shoots back a "terrorist" doesn't make it so.

[/ QUOTE ]
People who help terrorists (especially to this degree) are just as guilty.

[ QUOTE ]
Israel was interferring with medical services and personnel and shooting and blowing up ambulances years before they could conjure up any evidence that of any ambulance ever carried weapons of any sort.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps they suspected the Palestinians of using this tactic, but couldn't provide hard evidence. I don't know.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice faking of the Hamas covenant, which actually says "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

Of course; only when everyone accepts Islam as the superior religion and Muslims as the superior beings, can the Jews and Christians live in peace; until then, we fight to the death.

Too bad those pesky Jews won't all accept Muslims as the superior beings.

In other words: Arabs demand Jews follow Muslim law.

Israel doesn't demand that Arabs follow Jewish law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points, Gamblor; and IMO this is the CRUX of the overall problems in the Middle East between Jews and Arabs, stretching back to ancient times.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
There are more Jews in America than in Israel


[/ QUOTE ]

This may or may not be true today...

It will definitely not be true in 10 yrs...

Do your homework there may not be many Jews at all left in America in 60 yrs+....

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
So if Hamas doesn't have written policy of attacking children than anyone who claims as much is a "liar?" A typical Gamblor argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does.....setllers regarless of age are legitimate targets of not only Hamas but Islamic Jihad and the various PLO factions engaged in terrorism.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
This may or may not be true today...

It will definitely not be true in 10 yrs...

Do your homework there may not be many Jews at all left in America in 60 yrs+....

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't tell me to do my homework Zaxx.

I am very familiar with the increase in the intermarriage rate.

I plan to add to it, because I do not intend to marry a JAP.

And I am an American. My loyalty is to this country. Not to some foreign country that attacked us 35 years ago without cause.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that I am Jewish? I was born Jewish. I have two Jewish parents. I was bar mitzvahed. I had a bris.

[/ QUOTE ]

So were the Kapo who beat and murdered fellow Jews to temporarily escape murder themselves during the holocaust.

Ity really doesnt matter though...Jews like you grow up have 1 or 2 kids with a Christian and thats the end of it.

You are a ghost, a shadow demographically and wont matter in 50 yrs.

Sephardic Jews and Ultra religious ones will bc they have kids....

It really is just that simple.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
So were the Kapo who beat and murdered fellow Jews to temporarily escape murder themselves during the holocaust.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is just disgusting Zaxx. Are you comparing me to a Kapo? I'm very familiar with the kapos. They were the scumbags who were the heads of their bunkhouses and had power over the other inmates. The SS guards would pick the kapos. Often they would be people with long experience in the camps.

Comparing to me to those sick pigs is disgusting, just because I choose to not support the Israeli government.

[ QUOTE ]
Ity really doesnt matter though...Jews like you grow up have 1 or 2 kids with a Christian and thats the end of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say this like it is a bad thing. Are you definitely going to marry a Jew? You are restricting myself to less than .2% of the world's popualtion if I say this. There are a lot of fine girls out there who are not Jewish.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
And I am an American. My loyalty is to this country. Not to some foreign country that attacked us 35 years ago without cause.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proven how out of touch you really are with reality...thanx. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
That is just disgusting Zaxx. Are you comparing me to a Kapo?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the shoe fits....

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is just disgusting Zaxx. Are you comparing me to a Kapo?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the shoe fits....

[/ QUOTE ]

I point out evil when I see it. If those evil people happen to be Jewish, then that is not going to stop me.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I am an American. My loyalty is to this country. Not to some foreign country that attacked us 35 years ago without cause.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have just proven how out of touch you really are with reality...thanx. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a funny statement coming from you. After all, you're the one that believes Iraq has been a grand success.

[BCPVP]

Any reason this can't be done over the personal messages?
This thread was pretty good before the personal fights broke out...

[Dead]

It was fine until Zaxx came in, you mean. I've tried to keep from resorting to personal attacks.

Let's try to get the thread back on topic now.

And I don't take accusations of anti-semitism lightly.

[zaxx19]

No, you seem to take it seriously posting lie after lie perpetrated by the Arab hate machine.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
No, you seem to take it seriously posting lie after lie perpetrated by the Arab hate machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

They pay me well. What can I say? http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ajp9y/pics/etc/emoticon.shrug.gif

[zaxx19]

This might be funny.....

If it wasnt for the fact that they do pay alot of people to spew anti-semitic crap in the US.

e.g. Louis Farrakhan.

[Dead]

I don't deny that Louis Farrakhan is an anti-semite. He certainly is. Instead of talking about the evil deeds of the "Israelis", he talks about the evil deeds of the "Jews". He apparently can't distinguish between the two. I can.

Compare what I say to what he says. He talks about Jews being wicked deceivers of the American people, etc.

Ask InchoateHand if i'm an anti-semite. He'll tell you that I'm not.

I'm very against anti-semitism. Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to anti-semitism.

That would be like saying that I must hate black people because I criticize the policies of the government in Rwanda.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very against anti-semitism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank G-d I wasnt drinking milk at the time of reading this....

I suppose Uncle Tom wasnt pro-Lynching either, so maybe you are right after all.

[BCPVP]

Knock it off zaxx...

[Gamblor]

setllers regarless of age are legitimate targets of not only Hamas but Islamic Jihad and the various PLO factions engaged in terrorism.


Settlers? remember all the fights when the discussion came up on the question of whether to halt attacks within the green line? as if some magical line made the attacks less ethical?

theyre murderous animals, plain/simple.

[ QUOTE ]
And I am an American. My loyalty is to this country. Not to some foreign country that attacked us 35 years ago without cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

So instead you side with a bunch of people that danced in the street after 9/11?

[Dead]

I addressed that issue earlier in the thread.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't deny that Louis Farrakhan is an anti-semite. He certainly is. Instead of talking about the evil deeds of the "Israelis", he talks about the evil deeds of the "Jews". He apparently can't distinguish between the two. I can.

Compare what I say to what he says. He talks about Jews being wicked deceivers of the American people, etc.

Ask InchoateHand if i'm an anti-semite. He'll tell you that I'm not.

I'm very against anti-semitism. Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to anti-semitism.

That would be like saying that I must hate black people because I criticize the policies of the government in Rwanda.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your position distinguishing Israel and anti-semitism is legitimate. Your reflexive criticisms of Israel, however, are generally off base and come across as uninformed. You come across as a young Jew who feels a need to criticize Israel at every turn in order to show that he's an independent thinker who doesn't follow the herd.

Israel certainly is not perfect. A reasonable person could make a case that there are things about which it deserves to be criticized; but so do a lot of countries in this world. Yet everyone jumps up and down about Israel.

Take the USS Liberty thing you keep bringing up as an example. I'll bet you know less about it than I do, and I don't know that much. But there was a time when I did do some research into it, as I made the acquaintance of one of the men on the boat, who told me the story (about which I had never heard) and proceeded to kill Israel at every turn. And if you put the conspiracy theories aside, which are based on little other than the statements of the soldiers that Israel had to have deliberately attacked them, the conclusion everyone reached is that the attack was a terrible mistake made by a grossly negligent ally. Israel admitted a mistake and paid compensation.

In the Iraq war, for example, it seemed that American soldiers made a few "mistakes". It happens in war. I'm sure every time you read about a mistake, you didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that whatever the mistake was couldn't have been a mistake.

I feel for the soldiers who were on the Liberty, but given what they went through, their version of the attack, without independent corroboration, is not credible. You wouldn't judge our soldiers by the testimony of innocent Iraqi civilians that were accidentally attacked, would you? So why here?

Do yourself a favor and really look into the incident. See what our government said about this fairly recently.

[ QUOTE ]
I addressed that issue earlier in the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm aware of that. I'm not asking you to address it again. I am saying that, in my opinion, your position is ridiculous.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously throwing rocks and arrows is not protesting peacefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not.

You have one one extreme Terrorism and on the other extreme Peaceful Demonstration. Throwing Rocks is (MUCH) farther from Terrorism and closer to Peaceful Demonstration.

So, the Israelis respond to an act that is far from being any kind of terrorism by Shooting (Real) Bullets, a response appropriate against Terrorism. And i recall many a genuinely peaceful, rock-throwing-free demonstration of palestinians been broken up violently by the Israelis and having tens of people killed as a result. It's called State Terrorism, if you must know.

Not the conduit of a civilised nation as Israel presents itself to be.

Rather of apartheid South Africa. (You'd be surprised.)

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose if pushing Israel into the sea constitutes less war, then you're right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not suggest that Israel adopts some kind of "pacifist" stance. That would be unrealistic -- and wrong. I suggested, in the same word-playing vein of the previous post, that Israel stops fighting any more wars. I emphasized the word more. Israel has the upper hand and it's high time that it embarks on the road to genuine peace.

...Which will not happen any time soon, if Israel does not get some serious pressure from its sole benefactor, the U.S. of A.
Israel has gained from waging war, hot or cold war -- and stands only to lose with peace. (Imagine! The West Bank ripped out of Israel! Who would want that?...)

[ QUOTE ]
Stop trying to place all the blame on one side.

[/ QUOTE ]

(shrug) You are imagining things. Both sides have quite a lot to be blamed about. But Israel is the undisputable big stack in this affair, ever since 1947. It has always been more powerful militarily than all the Arab "front-line" states combined! So Israel, although not the sole party to blame, is guitty of most of it. (And also the key to peace. A bad situation.)

--Cyrus

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You have one one extreme Terrorism and on the other extreme Peaceful Demonstration. Throwing Rocks is (MUCH) farther from Terrorism and closer to Peaceful Demonstration.

[/ QUOTE ]
Something is either peaceful or it isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
So, the Israelis respond to an act that is far from being any kind of terrorism by Shooting (Real) Bullets, a response appropriate against Terrorism.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is appropriate. If people started throwing rocks at our soldiers, I would hope our soldiers open fire as well.

[ QUOTE ]
And i recall many a genuinely peaceful, rock-throwing-free demonstration of palestinians been broken up violently by the Israelis and having tens of people killed as a result.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then by all means, post these examples. I'm not saying they don't happen, but they need to become the rule, not the exception before there will be peace.

[ QUOTE ]
Not the conduit of a civilised nation as Israel presents itself to be.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's easy for you to sit an armchair without being in the danger that many Israelis face. But I do not claim that Israel is blameless. Just that they are not totally to blame.

[ QUOTE ]
I suggested, in the same word-playing vein of the previous post, that Israel stops fighting any more wars. I emphasized the word more. Israel has the upper hand and it's high time that it embarks on the road to genuine peace.

[/ QUOTE ]
What wars?

[ QUOTE ]
Israel has gained from waging war, hot or cold war -- and stands only to lose with peace.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes....gained in the deaths of a thousand-plus people.

[ QUOTE ]
So Israel, although not the sole party to blame, is guitty of most of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I am an American. My loyalty is to this country. Not to some foreign country that attacked us 35 years ago without cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

So instead you side with a bunch of people that danced in the street after 9/11?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you think the Palestinians as a whole, danced after 9/11, right?

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is appropriate. If people started throwing rocks at our soldiers, I would hope our soldiers open fire as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question for you. Are you a Christian?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

Cyrus: You have one one extreme Terrorism and on the other extreme Peaceful Demonstration. Throwing Rocks is (MUCH) farther from Terrorism and closer to Peaceful Demonstration.
---------------------------------------------------

BCPVP: Something is either peaceful or it isn't.
----------------------------------------------------------
Cyrus: So, the Israelis respond to an act that is far from being any kind of terrorism by Shooting (Real) Bullets, a response appropriate against Terrorism.

------------------------------------------------------
BCPVP: Yes, it is appropriate. If people started throwing rocks at our soldiers, I would hope our soldiers open fire as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question for Cyrus: what are the soldiers suppoosed to do, whip out shields to defend against thrown rocks? Should soldiers always have to carry shields in case some Palestinians decide to throw rocks at them? What if they get hit from behind or the side, not seeing the rock coming? Rocks are damned dangerous to be hit with. Throwing rocks is not like throwing eggs or tossing water ballons.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I am an American. My loyalty is to this country. Not to some foreign country that attacked us 35 years ago without cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

So instead you side with a bunch of people that danced in the street after 9/11?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you think the Palestinians as a whole, danced after 9/11, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean "as a whole"? Do I think every single Palestinian danced in the streets? Of course not. Were there images of Palestinian streets MOBBED with people celebrating? Yes. Were there interviews with Palestinians afterward, many (not all) either defending the attack and/or saying that we deserved it? Yes.

So what's your point?

[Chris Alger]

Of course this is a lie: Jews living in Arab countries have never had to adhere to all Islamic law and Arabs in Israel are subject to some Jewish ones, most notably by being denied the legal right of return, preserved only for Jews. The only thing interesting is your twist on the Hamas Covenant phrase about Jews flourishing "under the wing of Islam. You contend:

[ QUOTE ]
"In other words: Arabs demand Jews follow Muslim law."


[/ QUOTE ]
Thus the Hamas covenant becomes your twisted mindset the ubiquitous goal of "Arabs" in distinction to the (State of) Israel.

I guess it would be equally fair to claim that "Jews" believe that failing to wipe out Palestinians is "a violation of Jewish law." The latter phrase appears in an article on the Citizens for Netanyahu (http://www.netanyahu.org/furrefonsel.html) website. It decries "the Sharon's Government's policy of self-restraint" in failing to recognize the impossibility of "peaceful coexistence" between Jews and Palestinians and the coming "inevitable war" that "will witness the end of the internal and external Arab problem."

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
So instead you side with a bunch of people that danced in the street after 9/11?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, you think the Palestinians as a whole, danced after 9/11, right?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What do you mean "as a whole"? Do I think every single Palestinian danced in the streets? Of course not.


[/ QUOTE ]


Well. you implied that. Or you think Dead sided with just the ones who danced?

That kind of generalizations talk a lot about your bias. There are crazy people and brain-washed people EVERYWHERE, including, Palestina, Israel, Texas, Montana, Ireland, Germany, Papua, etc.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you mean "as a whole"? Do I think every single Palestinian danced in the streets? Of course not.


----------------------------------------------------


Well. you implied that. Or you think Dead sided with just the ones who danced?
--------------------------------------------------------
That kind of generalizations talk a lot about your bias. There are crazy people and brain-washed people EVERYWHERE, including, Palestina, Israel, Texas, Montana, Ireland, Germany, Papua, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but those in Israel, Texas, Montana, Ireland, Germany, Papua, don't go out dancing in the streets at a disaster inflicted on some country they might not like.

This short sub-thread speaks more about YOUR bias, Sirio, to apologize for the supporters and cheerleaders of terror, than it does of any bias on Niss' part.

The number or percentage of crazy and brainwashed people is NOT everywhere the same. And the number or percentage of people who support terror, or react with glee at the misfortune of others, is not everywhere the same, either.

[Gamblor]

not a single word of this post makes any sense.

I will point out though, that no Jews in Arab countries ever fired rifles at driving families or blew themselves up on busses.

On the other hand, in the old days, a Jew in Iraq would be killed if he didn't allow his daughter to marry a Muslim who demanded her.

So, again; Jews may only live in peace under the wing of Islam.

You don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So instead you side with a bunch of people that danced in the street after 9/11?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, you think the Palestinians as a whole, danced after 9/11, right?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What do you mean "as a whole"? Do I think every single Palestinian danced in the streets? Of course not.


[/ QUOTE ]


Well. you implied that. Or you think Dead sided with just the ones who danced?

That kind of generalizations talk a lot about your bias. There are crazy people and brain-washed people EVERYWHERE, including, Palestina, Israel, Texas, Montana, Ireland, Germany, Papua, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "bias" you mean that I have a bias against people who rejoiced at the attack on us on 9/11 -- then yes, I have a bias.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but those in Israel, Texas, Montana, Ireland, Germany, Papua, don't go out dancing in the streets at a disaster inflicted on some country they might not like.

This short sub-thread speaks more about YOUR bias, Sirio, to apologize for the supporters and cheerleaders of terror, than it does of any bias on Niss' part.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't apologize the palestinians dancing because of 9/11, that was a stupid thing to do. I'm just pointing out that there are stupid people, everywhere, well, even in this forum.

[ QUOTE ]
The number or percentage of crazy and brainwashed people is NOT everywhere the same. And the number or percentage of people who support terror, or react with glee at the misfortune of others, is not everywhere the same, either.


[/ QUOTE ]

You say the number of crazy people is not the same, so lets see the research and the numbers in this matter. I'm very interested.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people dancing in the US every time the brave American soldiers kill some arabs. (And for the future spinners, I'm meaning arabs, not terrorists)

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
If by "bias" you mean that I have a bias against people who rejoiced at the attack on us on 9/11 -- then yes, I have a bias.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're better than that niss. You know what I mean, you implied that Palestian people are bad (not just the ones who danced) because they rejoiced at the attack on us on 9/11, so you should side with Israel, and thats pretty lame.
The Israel-Palestinian conflict is a very complex one, and I just think this kind of views, just doesn't help anything to find a solution; and lower the level of discussion about the issue.

And I should add I think exactly the same about Dead and the USS Liberty issue.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If by "bias" you mean that I have a bias against people who rejoiced at the attack on us on 9/11 -- then yes, I have a bias.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're better than that niss. You know what I mean, you implied that Palestian people are bad (not just the ones who danced) because they rejoiced at the attack on us on 9/11, so you should side with Israel, and thats pretty lame.
The Israel-Palestinian conflict is a very complex one, and I just think this kind of views, just doesn't help anything to find a solution; and lower the level of discussion about the issue.

And I should add I think exactly the same about Dead and the USS Liberty issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your flattery (I think). You criticism is legitimate, but I think misdirected. The original post -- by Dead -- said something that was pretty much the opposite of what I posted. I am too lazy to go back to read it, but it was something like he takes the Palestinian side because the Israelis have done X, Y, and Z wrong. And my response was meant to indicate that such a position seems both overly simple and a bit hypocritical, as the side he is taking has done plenty of things that are no better (I picked 9/11 because he was harping on the fact that he was an American, not an Israeli).

So I agree with you. I think Dead was oversimplifying the issue. And my intention was to point that out, and not exacerbate the mistake.

Thank you for your response.

[Dead]

I'll just note that I resent the fact that you think I only picked the position that I hold to prove that I wasn't biased as a Jew. I picked it because I believe that it is the right and moral position. That's how I pick all of my political positions. I let my moral compass guide me.

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't judge our soldiers by the testimony of innocent Iraqi civilians that were accidentally attacked, would you? So why here?

[/ QUOTE ]

And why wouldn't I? When I judge acts of violence against innocent Iraqis, I'm not painting all US soldiers with the same brush. Most do the job they are required to do. There are just a few screw ups.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
no Jews in Arab countries ever fired rifles at driving families or blew themselves up on busses.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's absurd. The website of organization that you count yourself a proud member of, Betar, has a shrine to a guy who was hanged for trying to kill Palestinian Arabs driving by on a bus, and the current Prime Minister of Israel is the most likely culprit of a bus firebombing in 1947, according to Benny Morris, citing official documents identifying the perpetrator as "Arik." Thousands of Arabs living in their own country were murdered by Zionists trying to drive them from their land. That's why they're so pissed.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people dancing in the US every time the brave American soldiers kill some arabs. (And for the future spinners, I'm meaning arabs, not terrorists)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I haven't seen any. Have you?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people dancing in the US every time the brave American soldiers kill some arabs. (And for the future spinners, I'm meaning arabs, not terrorists)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I haven't seen any. Have you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Freerepublic.com

Search for Arab.

You'll find plenty

[sirio11]

Yes

[MMMMMM]

Well Dead, I searched "Arab" on www.freerepublic.com (http://www.freerepublic.com), as you suggested, but I didn't find any reports of Americans dancing at news that Arabs were killed.

Perhaps you could provide a specific link?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people dancing in the US every time the brave American soldiers kill some arabs. (And for the future spinners, I'm meaning arabs, not terrorists)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Well, I haven't seen any. Have you?
-----------------------------------------------------------

Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, where and when? Do tell.

[Gamblor]

That's absurd. The website of organization that you count yourself a proud member of, Betar, has a shrine to a guy who was hanged for trying to kill Palestinian Arabs driving by on a bus, and the current Prime Minister of Israel is the most likely culprit of a bus firebombing in 1947, according to Benny Morris, citing official documents identifying the perpetrator as "Arik." Thousands of Arabs living in their own country were murdered by Zionists trying to drive them from their land. That's why they're so pissed.

what a bunch of bullshit.

you proudly ignore the reality of pre-Israel holy land, where the Jews were slaughtered by the thousand for the crimes of 1) being there and 2) legally purchasing land for cultivation.

Each and every Jewish violent act was publicly announced to be in direct retaliation to a mass murder by Arabs or British.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good for them. The rest of America doesn't care, she was in a dangerous area, [censored] happens.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your brother is currently serving as a soldier in a dangerous area?

I'm sure he would be happy to learn from you that nobody gives a damn about what happens to an American guy in Iraq except maybe the guy's parents --good for them-- the rest of America doesn't care.

Here's hoping your brother doesn't meet the shitstorm that beckons.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference between a soldier being ordered into a dangerous area and a civilian going on her own to a dangerous place.

Thank you

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people dancing in the US every time the brave American soldiers kill some arabs. (And for the future spinners, I'm meaning arabs, not terrorists)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I haven't seen any. Have you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Freerepublic.com

Search for Arab.

You'll find plenty

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. I have never seen anyone there celebrate the deaths of any innocent Arab.

Arabs who happen to be fighting against the people of Iraq and/or against Americans are not missed, however, but those people are combatants fighting against the freedom of Arab civilians.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people dancing in the US every time the brave American soldiers kill some arabs. (And for the future spinners, I'm meaning arabs, not terrorists)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I haven't seen any. Have you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Freerepublic.com

Search for Arab.

You'll find plenty

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. I have never seen anyone there celebrate the deaths of any innocent Arab.

Arabs who happen to be fighting against the people of Iraq and/or against Americans are not missed, however, but those people are combatants fighting against the freedom of Arab civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some would argue that those people are defending their homeland.

[zaxx19]

and a Yankee fan.....


It just gets better and better.

[BCPVP]

Was slavery okay, since the South was just "defending their homeland"?

[zaxx19]

as long as the slaves are Black and in the Sudan ........

and still not free....thats basic liberal logic.- circa 2005

[Dead]

I don't see the Republicans doing anything about it.

[zaxx19]

Really? I saw Pat Robertson railing about it basically from the beginning yrs and yrs ago.

Does Pat Robertson qualify as a conservative/Republican?

[Dead]

Hahahahahaha. Pat Robertson. This is the guy that supports forced abortions in China while being opposed to voluntary ones at home.

I saw Pat Robertson talking about Africa's issues during the Clinton administration, but once Bush got elected, he shut up real fast.

[zaxx19]

Heres the quote: " I don't agree with it . But at the same time, they've got 1.2 billion people, and they don't know what to do,"

Obviously a ringing endorsement.