more metagame...Checkraising & pair protection...

[DcifrThs]

i open raise 4 off the button w/ something around 88...so from 77-TT.

29.35/12/2 3 bets. he has been seeing me c'r my top pairs a lot in this session and his raise of me here is tighter than of other players imo. aka, any ace wont do by any means...

flop comes AT3.

i check he bets, i think and raise.

comments?
-Barron

[JAA]

I think you definitely raise. If he puts you on an ace (which an observant opponent will who has seen you checkraise top pair on the flop multiple times) you have a valid chance of getting him to fold KK on down. It is very likely that he has such a holding, as you said he is probably only 3-betting you with legitimate holdings (AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, etc.)

I think he either lays it down here or calls and lays it down when you fire on the turn enough of the time to make this the right line.

You also don't want to be in the position of having your opponents know think they can 3-bet you liberally and have you check/fold on the flop.

- Jags

[elindauer]

Well, you are bluffing. Most 3-bet hands contain an ace, and those that don't are often called down to the river. So, all told, definitely not a good "default" play, and probably not here. Of course, heads up, you can make an argument for "making a move" at almost any time.

-Eric

[Senor Choppy]

How do you know he's been 'seeing' you play? I remember hands I'm involved in online, but otherwise, everything else goes completely unnoticed.

I seriously doubt someone with a VP$IP of almost 30 lays down a hand you can beat with this flop.

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
Most 3-bet hands contain an ace

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say this?

- Jags

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most 3-bet hands contain an ace

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say this?

- Jags

[/ QUOTE ]

Experience coupled with mathematics. In my experience, typical 3-bet hands for aggressive players are AK-AQ, AA-TT. There are a lot more ways to hold AK, AQ, AA (38) then there are to hold KK-TT (24).

The ace appearing on the board makes it less likely that the 3-bettor holds an ace, but it's still more likely he has an ace (28) than not (24).

-Eric

[pfkaok]

I think you'd also need his Went SD stat, or just some way to know if he'd fold KK-JJ here, b/c like at party 15 I'd assume that an unknown wouldn't give me that much respect... so I'd usually check/fold here, but raise can certainly be good against the right opponents.

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you'd also need his Went SD stat, or just some way to know if he'd fold KK-JJ here, b/c like at party 15 I'd assume that an unknown wouldn't give me that much respect... so I'd usually check/fold here, but raise can certainly be good against the right opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was assuming this was at Party $30, not $15. Dcifr?

- Jags

[pfkaok]

Well, I haven't played the 30, so I'm not sure, but either way, it'd need to be player dependant IMO.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you'd also need his Went SD stat, or just some way to know if he'd fold KK-JJ here, b/c like at party 15 I'd assume that an unknown wouldn't give me that much respect... so I'd usually check/fold here, but raise can certainly be good against the right opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was assuming this was at Party $30, not $15. Dcifr?

- Jags

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, 30/60.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I haven't played the 30, so I'm not sure, but either way, it'd need to be player dependant IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think theres a bit missed on th e point of this post...

-Barron

[pfkaok]

Sorry, I just meant that maybe a typical unknown at the 30 game is tight enough postflop that you can assume they'd probably muck JJ - KK here rather than 3 bet it, or try to take it to showdown. At 15/30, I don't think this is the case.

However, if you had notes, or stats on the player, then it doesn't matter if its the 15/30, or 30/60. You'd need to have notes saying that they fold fairly often after raising or 3-betting, or maybe see that they have a low Went to SD number. Or I guess even if they've folded in this spot to you before, so you think that they consider you tight. However, if you have notes saying the opposite, then I think this move is incorrect.