View Full Version : Hourly rate considerations for 4-tabling
suited_ace
03-30-2005, 03:26 PM
Well, it's a very simple question to those of you who 4-table, actually: how many games per day do you play in average?
Jman28
03-30-2005, 03:32 PM
How many games per day? That's gonna be different for everyone, and it's different for me every day.
If you're 4-tabling, a decent approximation is 5 games/hour. Hope that helps.
-Jman28
"If you're 4-tabling, a decent approximation is 5 games/hour."
That's if you play sets. You'll get somewhere between 6 and 7 if you run 4 continuously.
raptor517
03-30-2005, 03:59 PM
yea yea, 8 tabling u can get in around 12-13 on average if you dont run in sets. sets really cuts into the hourly rate. if you can run constantly, your hourly rate will go up a LOT. holla
dfscott
03-30-2005, 04:01 PM
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yea yea, 8 tabling u can get in around 12-13 on average if you dont run in sets. sets really cuts into the hourly rate. if you can run constantly, your hourly rate will go up a LOT. holla
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I just don't have the stamina for that -- I need my pee break!
sofere
03-30-2005, 04:08 PM
Learning to hold it in is definitely +$EV, but not as much as adult diapers.
raptor517
03-30-2005, 04:39 PM
get up and RUN!! so what if u time out on 3 tables and make everyone pissed. thats their problem. bwahahaha
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get up and RUN!! so what if u time out on 3 tables and make everyone pissed. thats their problem. bwahahaha
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exactly, but getting aces automucked is -EV
raptor517
03-30-2005, 04:49 PM
getting aces automucked is -ev, yes, but getting in 12 tables an hour instead of 8 MORE than makes up for it. holla
etgryphon
03-30-2005, 04:57 PM
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get up and RUN!! so what if u time out on 3 tables and make everyone pissed. thats their problem. bwahahaha
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exactly, but getting aces automucked is -EV
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Ahhh...but who can't miss the color that is now added to our life.
1. Looking at the watch "The, I got the time..."
2. The running up the stairs (or down the hall)
3. The shouting "F*ckin' button Flys!" or "Broken Zipper!"
4. The Timer ding on the computer telling you have 15 sec to make your decision...
5. The looking over your shoulder and missing the toilet..."Damn!"
6. The quick zip (if you were lucky to have a zipper) and the searing pain that only Ted Stroehmann would understand...
7. All to have this happen:
http://members.tripod.com/Ippdmypants/photoalbum3/images/meinwetpants.jpg
Man, Who would miss out on that?!
-Gryph
stupidsucker
03-30-2005, 05:28 PM
I play continuosly with my main priority to set up a new table rather then press any buttons on a game going on.
Having a bathroom close by with the privacy to run back naked helps a lot. This was recently mentioned in another post of mine.
In a car I can hold it for 8hours plus... At home I am lucky to go 1.5 hours.
The Yugoslavian
03-30-2005, 06:01 PM
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Having a bathroom close by with the privacy to run back naked helps a lot. This was recently mentioned in another post of mine.
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Okay, that's it, if you mention this one more time then we're going to have Mills chicks cut of your johnson.
Yugoslav
mcpherzen
03-30-2005, 07:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
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Having a bathroom close by with the privacy to run back naked helps a lot. This was recently mentioned in another post of mine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, that's it, if you mention this one more time then we're going to have Mills chicks cut of your johnson.
Yugoslav
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I totally agree, Yugo. Now everytime I find myself at Seat11's table and he's taking a while to act, I'm going to get the obvious awful visual in my head. For the love of Pedro, stupidsucker... I nominate a complete moratorium on any inference in a post to "I play naked."
...unless you're a chick, of course. That's hot.
--Z
ForumBot
03-30-2005, 07:19 PM
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"I play naked."
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What does "naked" mean...I just wanna get a heart, or is it a brain? /images/graemlins/confused.gif
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"I play naked."
[/ QUOTE ]
What does "naked" mean...I just wanna get a heart, or is it a brain? /images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
http://k00080.myspace.com/00080/68/79/80639786_m.gif
stupidsucker
03-30-2005, 07:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Having a bathroom close by with the privacy to run back naked helps a lot. This was recently mentioned in another post of mine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, that's it, if you mention this one more time then we're going to have Mills chicks cut of your johnson.
Yugoslav
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I totally agree, Yugo. Now everytime I find myself at Seat11's table and he's taking a while to act, I'm going to get the obvious awful visual in my head. For the love of Pedro, stupidsucker... I nominate a complete moratorium on any inference in a post to "I play naked."
...unless you're a chick, of course. That's hot.
--Z
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Seems I have done my intangable job then..
I dont play naked though... Leather chairs and nakedness mixed with Vegas heat is just asking for a skin-graph.
When ya got to go you got to go.
I feel proud to have gotten him to post though. He doesnt post enough. (some of you post waaaaaaaaaay to much though)
Degen
03-30-2005, 08:37 PM
i tried this constantly stuff for awhile...then i read on this forum that its better to do sets because you don't make bad calls in the full tables and miss steal opportunities on your bubble/ITM tables.
i applied this and my ROI went through the roof.
Degen
Donating
03-30-2005, 09:03 PM
Why do you think your ROI went up? Do you think it is:
(1) because it is easier to play 4 tournaments at the same level at the same time or
(2) on average, you're actually playing a lot less than 4 tables at a time given that you'll be knocked out at various stages. Less multitabling = higher ROI.
I 4 table, start with 4 and then start a new one every time I get knocked out. I think sometimes it's easier for me to be on auto-fold on the Level 1-3 tourneys while concentrating on the short-handed ones. I actually find it difficult if I am deep in 4 tourneys at the same time, where I really need good reads on 15-20 players to maximize my success. I don't have any hard data to support this... I am still trying to figure this out myself.
johnny005
03-30-2005, 09:10 PM
I find it does make things easier when you are down to the bubble on only 2-3 tables due to bust outs on other tables give me time to concentrate more on those tables I tried to play them constantly but found I want getting enought time to make decisions
SuitedSixes
03-30-2005, 09:24 PM
Agreed. It is somewhat confusing to have one table where A9 is an auto-muck and another where A7 is an auto-push. It is also nice to be able to concentrate on one table after an 0/3.
I feel my ROI is much higher playing in sets, I will start another if all of my others are still in Level 1.
Donating
03-30-2005, 09:40 PM
Although I think that your ROI is higher - I am guessing that your hourly rate is lower than what it could be. Assuming 4-tabling, you are effectively playing around 2 SNGs per hour here, vs. someone who is constantly restarting getting in between 5-6. This means that your ROI needs to be >2.5x in order to compensate for this. This is just back-of-the envelope math here - I am totally off in my thinking?
SuitedSixes
03-30-2005, 09:50 PM
I figure I play about 5 1/3 SNGs an hour (at the 800 starting chip level). My average is 38 min. per tournament, but I figure it at 45 min. per set (in case I have a long HU or bubble), so in an hour I get 4 complete tournaments and 4 others about 1/3 of the way done.
I think my hourly rate takes more of a hit when I am just playing one that I started after a quick bust-out but I don't have time to start any more when I don't play in sets.
Donating
03-30-2005, 10:25 PM
OK - so assuming you don't start another set until the first one is totally complete, the aggregate time you are giving up is equal to the difference between the time it takes to complete your average longest tournament (over sets of 4) less the time it completes your average tournament (over sets of 4). It seems to me that the difference you give (38 min vs. 45 min) is extremely small. Is this because you typically make it very deep into tournaments and the vast majority of the time is spent going from 10-->4-5 players and very little time from 4-5-->End. If this is the case, you are giving up much less time than I would suspect.
raptor517
03-30-2005, 11:43 PM
hourly rate is WAY higher when not playing in sets. if you run 8 tables constantly, and start one as soon as you bust, you may be able to get in 70% or so more sngs than you would if you waited until every single one of them was done. possibly even more. i dont think there is any way your roi can take that big of a hit running the sngs constantly. if you can, try to play continuously, your roi might drop 3%, but your hourly rate will shoot up. holla
Donating
03-31-2005, 02:08 AM
I did some decent back-of-the-envelope math on this. I made some assumptions about tournament length given various finishes (I don't keep length of SNG data but I don't think I'm far off here). I used my average finish to determine how much time is wasted on a 4-set basis. Using this, I came up with a figure of closer to 20%. If this is the case and someone loses 3% of their ROI - they must be above a 15% ROI to not be negatively affected. If I had good data - I could come much closer to the actual amount of time wasted, but I think it's good enough for government work. Bottom line – if on average you are regularly making it deep into tournaments, I don't think that people who are running 4-sets are losing out on that much here if it noticeably improves their play.
Totally agree. Playing continuous maxes your hourly rate. The higher the buyin, the greater the difference (since sngs last longer, sets will last longer, also that you bust out early more often which means even more opportunities to start new).
When I 4tabled (I 5table now which is my max only because of hardware), I'd average somewhere around 6.5 to 7 tables an hour. Think that might've been because of my breakeven run, but I think 6 to 6.5 is definately doable. With 5 tables I'm looking at 7-8 compared to just 5 or 6 (if I played in sets).
As for ROI drop I don't think it's very much at all if you are used to multitabling. Instead of 2 bustouts and 2 bubbles, you have 2 level 1s and 2 bubbles, is there really any difference?? The shorterhanded games will naturally get more attention. I think the problem might be to how automatic your decisions are. I take a quick glance at the table and know what I'm going to do right away and how I'm going to react to another bet/raise/push in whatever position. If you do have a hand you want to think about, take your time.
Also, most of the 2+2ers I've run across never use the auto fold. It really saves alot of time in the early levels allowing you to focus on the shorthanded tables.
BradleyT
03-31-2005, 03:19 AM
I'm lazy, I play 1 or 2 sets of 8 a night.
Maybe I'll give the continuous thing a try this weekend.
autofold, does that mean you fold KK and AA early if you don't notice them in time and are in early position so you would fold within a second of getting them?
Donating
03-31-2005, 04:01 PM
I simply meant that I'm folding the great majority of my hands - I don't use the auto-fold button. Given my extreme tightness early in the tourney coupled with the fact that I think early tournament play is so different from late tournament play (and the associated reads) - I don't have to spend much time on tournaments in the first 3/4 levels.
Degen
03-31-2005, 04:09 PM
3) because i played better poker when i was on the same level on all tables.
Degen
DangerGoodson
03-31-2005, 04:38 PM
32 a day is my goal. Usually takes 7 hours 4 tabling.
raptor517
03-31-2005, 06:32 PM
damn. thats such a long time for only 32 sngs.. 7 hours.. if i dont have like 75 done in that time im greatly distressed. 8 tabling continuously is definitely the way to go.. holla
raptor517
03-31-2005, 06:34 PM
well, i think 20% is way off. WAY off. in a 10 hour period, 8 tabling in sets you HOPE to get in 80. in a 10 hour period, 8 tabling, i can get in 120 no problemo. aaaaand, i dont think my roi is messed up very much by running everything continuously.. hmm. i really think running in sets wastes a LOT of time that could be used to increase hourly rate. if you dont do it, you should give it a try. holla
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 06:36 PM
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damn. thats such a long time for only 32 sngs.. 7 hours.. if i dont have like 75 done in that time im greatly distressed. 8 tabling continuously is definitely the way to go.. holla
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Come on rap, 32 for you is still like $300/day. Greedy bastard. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif You going to start 8tabling again soon? Noticed you fell off big time on the Empire leaderboard. You on the sidelines makes the games softer for us 4tablers. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
raptor517
03-31-2005, 06:57 PM
well, ive been playing a new account actually, and i have been on vacation in reno and am in laguna right now.
since im on my laptop here, i can only play 6 tables. i know i know, im slacking, but thats the best this 1920x1200 resolution can do for me. and yea, i know bebop has fallen off, im playing party now a lot, no more nurselady, but wtf_pwnd. prolly not gonna be up on the leaderboard much, cuz of this neat lil vacation thing im doin, as it was much needed.
anyways, on saturday i get back to the durrrrty south, and back to my beloved 8 table setup, so i should be back on track. until then i have to settle with playing only about 30 a day while watching the ocean. such a tought life.. holla
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 07:04 PM
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well, ive been playing a new account actually, and i have been on vacation in reno and am in laguna right now.
since im on my laptop here, i can only play 6 tables. i know i know, im slacking, but thats the best this 1920x1200 resolution can do for me. and yea, i know bebop has fallen off, im playing party now a lot, no more nurselady, but wtf_pwnd. prolly not gonna be up on the leaderboard much, cuz of this neat lil vacation thing im doin, as it was much needed.
anyways, on saturday i get back to the durrrrty south, and back to my beloved 8 table setup, so i should be back on track. until then i have to settle with playing only about 30 a day while watching the ocean. such a tought life.. holla
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Laguna Niguel, CA? Get some trout together and let's all do something around here!
raptor517
03-31-2005, 07:07 PM
laguna beach, orange county, i know zilch about the area. me and yugo goin to dinner 2nite, so thatll be fun. holla /images/graemlins/wink.gif
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 07:23 PM
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laguna beach, orange county, i know zilch about the area. me and yugo goin to dinner 2nite, so thatll be fun. holla /images/graemlins/wink.gif
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Laguna Beach/Niguel, same same. I'm about 2 hours north of you but if something crazy comes up, count me in. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
raptor517
03-31-2005, 07:27 PM
yea i wanted to go to commerce on friday, as im leaving saturday.. i gotta eat dinner with my friends dad friday evening, but after that.. i might be able to go to commerce, which should be a blast /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla
The Yugoslavian
03-31-2005, 07:31 PM
Is the Commerce an option for tomorrow night? I bet TheUsher would be down (sounds like it).
Yeah, I'm hoping to trick Raptor into droppin' knowledge by buying him *tons* of drinks for his underaged ass. Hopefully he'll be so smashed he won't even realize he's telling me all of his bajillion secrets.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!
Yugoslav
raptor517
03-31-2005, 07:37 PM
lol, well im drinking already, got a few ladies up in the room right now. i love california.. bwahahahaha and yea, commerce is an option for 2moro no doubt, but itll be late
By autofold I don't mean the 'post blinds and fold', I just mean the normal fold button. It is a bit quicker than watching it all manually and leaves time to make other decisions. Course this means your basically doing nothing for the first few levels of the first set.
BTW this was to 1C5.
"I don't have to spend much time on tournaments in the first 3/4 levels."
You spend less when you use the fold button /images/graemlins/wink.gif
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 08:01 PM
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Is the Commerce an option for tomorrow night? I bet TheUsher would be down (sounds like it).
Yeah, I'm hoping to trick Raptor into droppin' knowledge by buying him *tons* of drinks for his underaged ass. Hopefully he'll be so smashed he won't even realize he's telling me all of his bajillion secrets.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!
Yugoslav
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!!!! COMMERCE !!!! You high rollers better not make us small folk feel bad now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I don't think I'm able to bring much tomorrow though as all my money is going into my vacation in a few weeks but a couple of buyins of crazy 100-200 N/L I can afford. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
raptor517
03-31-2005, 08:04 PM
yea yea, lets play like a 1-2 NL game and go crazy, thats always fun /images/graemlins/wink.gif liiiike, max buyin 200 we all push first hand, then rebuy so we all have a stack. hah. for sure though, i def wanna go, kevin and i could head out there at like 9 pm or so, it would be tight. well figure something out /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 08:18 PM
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yea yea, lets play like a 1-2 NL game and go crazy, thats always fun /images/graemlins/wink.gif liiiike, max buyin 200 we all push first hand, then rebuy so we all have a stack. hah. for sure though, i def wanna go, kevin and i could head out there at like 9 pm or so, it would be tight. well figure something out /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla
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1/2 would be fun but they have it a 2/3 for $100 max and (if I remember right) 3/5 for the $200 max. Crazy action though as you can tell from the blinds. They have a $600 minimum though (10/20 blinds i think?).
The Yugoslavian
03-31-2005, 08:20 PM
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!!!! COMMERCE !!!! You high rollers better not make us small folk feel bad now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I don't think I'm able to bring much tomorrow though as all my money is going into my vacation in a few weeks but a couple of buyins of crazy 100-200 N/L I can afford. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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Yeah, I sure hope Raptor and his high roller friends don't make us small $$ folk feel bad....
/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yugoslav
Who hasn't even ever been to the Commerce, /images/graemlins/shocked.gif.
The Yugoslavian
03-31-2005, 08:23 PM
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lol, well im drinking already, got a few ladies up in the room right now. i love california.. bwahahahaha and yea, commerce is an option for 2moro no doubt, but itll be late
[/ QUOTE ]
If they like Mexican food, invite 'em along, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.
Okay, so now I'm gonna have to get you to drink even more so I can get your bajillion secrets for ladies too. Damn, you're gonna drink way too much tonight, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.
Yugoslav
Who has to drive, /images/graemlins/mad.gif....but will still get a partial drink-on.
raptor517
03-31-2005, 08:30 PM
bwahaha, sounds like a plan
raptor517
03-31-2005, 08:32 PM
what what?? you have never even been there?!?!?!? bah. high roller friends, lol. yea we do some stupid gambling stuff, but we have fun. its nice being young. yea yea, well play whatever, i fully intend to get destroyed at commerce. purely entertainment value if we go, unless... i play that 600 min 10-20 NL game i heard about.... course i would buy in for around 2k to have a shot.. 600 is nothin in that game. bwahahaha
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 09:08 PM
Now if you really want to gambool it up... let me introduce you to a game called Pai Gow Poker. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif The action at Commerce is even crazier, and you could bank a ton of $$$ per hand. If I remember it right the max per hand on 3 different table limits is: $1800/$3600/$10800. It's like poker on crack with 7 cards where you try to beat the other people if you're the bank with 1 hand. They have a joker you could get too (so 53 card deck) which could be anything you want (better than vegas rules). Anyhow, you need lots of $$$ and balls if you want to go in say the $3600 max game as the average bets per hand are something like $1000-$1400 or so. You could buy "action" if you'd like for a couple of bucks per $100 placed for you if you want to max out the table. Anyhow, there's probably more to say about it but it's a crazy game there. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
raptor517
03-31-2005, 09:11 PM
lol, sounds crazy. but is it a beatable game? at least in blackjack i can count a lil bit and know basic strategy, so its not a terrible gamble. in poker, even if im wasted i still think i can beat most people, but pai gow.. hmm. we shall see about that tomorrow night.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla
TheUsher
03-31-2005, 09:18 PM
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lol, sounds crazy. but is it a beatable game? at least in blackjack i can count a lil bit and know basic strategy, so its not a terrible gamble. in poker, even if im wasted i still think i can beat most people, but pai gow.. hmm. we shall see about that tomorrow night.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla
[/ QUOTE ]
Beatable? Hell I don't know. It's gambling! /images/graemlins/wink.gif I'd say the rules there are better than Vegas though and I was up a ton when I played it last year*. The swings could get to you though when you have $1000's on the line each hand. Also the fact that if you want to play for big money you gotta bring big money there kind of annoyed me. I'll check out the other forums here later to see what neat info I could get to use tomorrow.
There are some strategies and math stuff at: http://www.wizardofodds.com/paigowpoker
* my sample size is tiny. !
Edit: Before anyone thinks I'm crazy, let's say you're the bank with $1000 in total bets from 6 people. Most of the time you push hands and say win 1, lose 1 where you win say $100 or something per hand. Yes, you could lose $1000 max if you banked that much, but you could also win $1000 if you kill everyone. Like I said though, most of the times you either win or lose a small amount compared to what you bank.
Degen
03-31-2005, 09:35 PM
great game...also check out the 500 MIN at the bike.
If you want to take a step down in buy-in and go to a place that is MUCH BETTER suited to getting hammered, i'd reccomend the 100-300 buy-in at the Hustler. Very fishy w/ 2/5 blinds. Much better atmospher than the others IMO.
Degen
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