How many hands in a row will you raise?

[unglee]

This is a general question, but brought on by a situation that happened last night at the Empire 10K final table. I had just won two large pots in a row with legitimate hands (QQ, AKo), betting 3x-5x bb preflop, and taking them down by the turn without a showdown.

Now I'm UTG, and I see 88. I'm in 2nd of 10 remaining with 28K (chip leader has 40K)--what would you do, and if you bet, how much? 88 is a hand I will try to steal with, but it's not a hand I want to see any callers for, and at this point I'm figuring someone at the table must be ready to take a stand.

And if you think folding is the best option, what would be the minimum hand for you to bet into this pot? Do you raise your standards given the two previous hands you won, or do you ignore that and play them as usual?

Thanks.

[Tim H]

limp, perfect opportunity to slow down

[skoal2k4]

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limp, perfect opportunity to slow down


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[badvb750]

I think it kinda depends on your position. If you are UTG you could limp and try a steal on the flop. If you limp UTG, it mixes up your play and stops LP steals with marginal holdings.

If you are on the button and it was been folded to you; I would try to steal the blinds. Even if you have just won two pots in a row, its still hard to call from the blinds if you have crap. And, if they play back at ya, then it gets tricky.

Just some of my thoughts, I'm not a tourney genius.

[augie00]

You have to slow down here. Not many people can take the same guy raising three hands in a row, and if you make your standard raise and someone comes back at you, you can't call. Limp for that set baby.

[Pulplife]

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limp, perfect opportunity to slow down

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My biggest problem with this is that he is at the final table, with 9 to act. He seriously would have to ask "what am I going to do when it's raised".

If you would calls a raise, say 4BB, you should make the raise yourself (regardless of the previous two hands).

I the field is strong, you will not see a cheap flop, so its a raise or fold.

If your going to be afraid of a call or re-raise, fold. You will have much better spots to play when your in position.

[skoal2k4]

ok... so you raise 4xBB and someone re-raises all-in... what do you do?

[SoBeDude]

Did the table see the AK and the QQ previously?

If so, I'm raising the 88 100% of the time.

-Scott

[Pulplife]

Maybe I'm to tight here, but I'm folding this pf, UTG. I can't take any heat with 88, and at a final table with 9 to act, I'm gone. Especially being second in chips, no need to gamble here.

My original response said, if you were to limp, you should decide what to do when raised. But I would not raise here.

[yecul]

Would it be wise to flash the uncalled monsters to give his raises and future steals legitimacy or is that too transparent to work?

I don't like folding 88 at the final table. Limp and drop to a push or lots of action. You'd like to see a flop, but raising could be dangerous for a third time in a row. Then again, you are UTG which might give legitimacy to the move.

I guess the short answer is I'm not sure, but I'll say to put in the standard raise and go with your reads after that.

[Jax_Grinder]

You have already won two fairly significant pots with one great hand and one very good hand in early position. Why come out firing UTG w/ a merely good holding into a table that is aching to fire back at you?

I agree with the previous posters that limping is the optimal move here. Folding is just bad and any justifiable raise amount (2-4x bb) will almost certainly lead to a re-raise that you just can't call without a great read (and even then, you are at best a small favorite). I also like the limp because someone with big cards here might well be looking to trap you rather than simply pushing you off your bb call and if your set hits on the flop....

My take on your question is that, yes, you HAVE to consider your immediately preceding hands when making this decision, and the likely result is a slight bump in your standards. That said, I can't see where making a significant raise into a tough final table w/ 88 UTG is ever a long-term +ev play unless you have a significant lead and fully intend to call any re-raise praying for overcards.

[Pulplife]

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Folding is just bad

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I'm curious, does everyone agree that a fold here is bad?

I would think that there is some merit to this play, but I am here to better my game and welcome ways to plug my leaks.

Does anyone see a fold as a valid play...at all?

edit: If the answer is never fold here, do you limp with any pair...down to two's?

[captainzodiac]

i don't like folding 88 preflop here either,a limp would be my play,in the final table,most will respect a limp from utg and not raise,fearing the rocket limp,and if someone does raise it will be because you are most likely up against a big hand,in which you have committed little chips and can get away from preflop. if i was in a later position this would be an easy raise,but utg,nah.

[Tim H]

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edit: If the answer is never fold here, do you limp with any pair...down to two's?


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I would (I'd even call a reasonable smallish raise), they are my favorite hands to play because they require no thought. You either muck them pf on big raise or you muck them on the flop if you don't hit trips.

[Jurollo]

What are the other stacks looking like at the table? How many are in desperation mode? If there is 3-4 that you can risk busting without taking a giant chunk of your stack I either raise 2.5x BB or limp to induce them to go in, then I'll take a coin flip against a short stack with a large range in order to move up a spot. If you just get flat called maybe you hit a set and someone fires back, if a larger stack raises you then you get out of dodge and salvage your stack.
~Justin

[sofere]

I'm a SNG tournament player, haven't played a multi in a long time. But I think this depends tremendously on what the blinds are relative to your stacks. If you are at 40+ times the BB, I limp and follow the "no set no bet" rule, less than that I fold. 88 is not a strong hand at a full table UTG.

JMO, play may be very different at a final table of a multi than at an SNG where no one is in the money until its 3-handed. In an SNG unless the table is 5-handed or less, I fold 88 UTG every time when the blinds aren't tiny, (especially if I feel I may have a loose table image)

[CieloAzor]

I generally have no problem raising 3 hands in a row, but not from UTG. I'd just limp. One of the shortstacks may notice that the pot is as big as his stack and shove all his chips in. That's fine. The only way you really get pushed off the hand is if a fellow large stack makes a large raise.

That's what I'd generally do. Other times I might throw caution to the wind and raise it again. Folding has merit too, but I'd seldom do it.

[Mad Genius1]

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Not many people can take the same guy raising three hands in a row

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Stu Ungar once raised 7 times in a row preflop at the final table of a WSOP and took each of them down uncontested.

Anyway, back to the actual hand, I think I would raise again. Typically people are afraid to be the first one out of a final table and thus like to play tight until one or two bust out. This is another good spot to steal the blinds with a med-strong hand.

[skoal2k4]

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Typically people are afraid to be the first one out of a final table and thus like to play tight until one or two bust out


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I've played in about 5 final tables and I have yet to run into this problem. (I know, sample size too small.. blah blah blah)

[nsj]

what are the blinds/antes at, and what did you raise the AK and QQ to?

if you're 2/10 with only 28k, i'm assuming blinds are no more than 300/600 or so. I think this is a good chance to mix it up and throw out a curveball. if you went ahead with a conventional 3x the last two hands. make it a min-raise, or make it 2.5, or make it some bizarre number like (assuming a 600 bb) 1375 or 1419 or whatever. it's not grounded in sound game theory, but a wtf? play might keep someone from going over the top with a bigger hand. confuse them into calling.

i don't like a fold here, you can bust someone with the right flop, and get away from it when you don't hit a set.

If the blinds are 500/1000 or higher, i dump it.

[Arnett23]

Keep raising till you get played back at.
Folding isn't a bad play either, 88's is a pretty weak hand utg.

[SoBeDude]

Folding 88 at a final table is just plain bad poker.

Limping with such a solid-but-vulnerable hand is also bad.

This is a RAISING HAND folks. 100% of the time.

Given that you just took down two big pots matters little. And if this causes some moron with crap like A-rag to push on you GREAT!

I'm assuming you raised with both your QQ and your AK. And since you said you took down nice pots, you must have got action on them. If these hands were SHOWN, then people are going to be LESS likely to push at you, not more. They don't see you raising with crap, they see you raising with Premium hands and scooping pots.

So my response would be to raise something like 2.5 X the big blind. (Which by the way, is something I'll do with AA as well.) You might be suprised how often this smaller raise takes down the pot right there. It is a solid-enough raise that cheese won't call, and if someone pushes huge over the top of me (beyond the point of me getting proper odds to call) then I can get away without costing myself much. Raising 4x here is dangerous as it tends to give you better odds to call an all-in when you're possibly way behind.

And folding here is horrible.

-Scott

[Nottom]

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What are the other stacks looking like at the table? How many are in desperation mode? If there is 3-4 that you can risk busting without taking a giant chunk of your stack I either raise 2.5x BB or limp to induce them to go in, then I'll take a coin flip against a short stack with a large range in order to move up a spot. If you just get flat called maybe you hit a set and someone fires back, if a larger stack raises you then you get out of dodge and salvage your stack.
~Justin

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These were pretty much my thoughts exactly

[Jax_Grinder]

IMHO, 88 is right near the bottom of my limp list here because you still have a reasonable chance at a raggedy flop if the set doesn't hit, giving you additional chances to make a play at the pot post flop. 22-66 obviously may not give you these options on later streets.

I am also, for better or worse, a big believer in mo'. If you just came off two nice size pots, give yourself at least a chance to limp your way into a set and, possibly, the chip lead.

[JohnG]

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Does anyone see a fold as a valid play...at all?

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If the stacks are pretty shallow, then folding is more than ok. It's raise or fold here unless stacks are pretty deep. Which one to choose depends on the dynamics.

[unglee]

Well, thanks for the advice, inconclusive as it might have been. Neither of my previous hands were shown, so I actually ended up folding the 88s. I felt pretty weak doing it, but I won the tourney, so I guess it worked out in the end. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FishInAPhoneBooth]

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Would it be wise to flash the uncalled monsters to give his raises and future steals legitimacy or is that too transparent to work?

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I often wonder about this. Anyone have any thoughts? (Read: Can anyone link me to the definitive thread?)